FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[bobm]

Well it was said to me and three others on board a train....

[Timmer]

Are there any sets with three first class coaches? So let see me if I've got this right. Sets with micro buffet that have two FC^▸ (First Class, or Fat Controller, or Football Club, depending on context) carriages will lose half a coach. Sets with a full buffet/kitchen will be turned around with First class's seats replaced with standard seats leaving two full First class carriages?

[ChrisB]

Oh. Sorry. For three, read two plus half in buffet. One full coaxh declassified reduces them all to 1.5 coaches in 1st

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks for clarifying that, ChrisB.

[John R]

Being slightly pedantic, only 1.35, as there are only 17 seats next to the buffet.

Wonder which will be the quiet carriage going forward? From experience the "third of a coach" can be very noisy being next to the buffet, so hopefully not that one.

[Timmer]

Being slightly pedantic, only 1.35, as there are only 17 seats next to the buffet.

Wonder which will be the quiet carriage going forward? From experience the "third of a coach" can be very noisy being next to the buffet, so hopefully not that one.

Not pedantic at all John as we are talking about even less seats in First on sets that are the original restaurant/buffet cars when HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) first started service. I don't think there are many sets which were half the carriage buffet and half standard seats in service which were then converted by Intercity into First class to give extra capacity in First! How times have changed. I assume these were pulled when micro buffets were installed in Standard leaving only the full kitchen/ buffets in service to provide Pullman and Travelling Chef services when required.

You are right when you say that is not a quiet place to sit when the buffet is open. They could put a door there but I doubt that will happen.

On East Coast HSTs that is the 'quiet coach' which is crazy as you have the crew working in that area who provide the First class complimentary service.

[didcotdean]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) are not particularly over-endowed with first class seats compared with equivalent services of some other main line operators, such as Virgin West Coast - I would guess on the lower density sets there would be at least 3 times the number of standard seats compared with first, and somewhat more on the higher. The filling up of the standard class progressively seems to have overwhelmed the stop gap measures already taken not that long ago though.

However, I guess a problem would only really arise if the first class becomes a regular standing area for people on full or season tickets, although the people who still expect the sole use of a four-seat table will be disappointed much sooner.

[ChrisB]

If Milton Keynes was treated the same way as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has to treat Reading, I strongly suspect Virgin would be doing the same!

[John R]

However, I guess a problem would only really arise if the first class becomes a regular standing area for people on full or season tickets, although the people who still expect the sole use of a four-seat table will be disappointed much sooner.

I've been having a quick check each day this week on the 1630 Paddington to Taunton on departure from Swindon. It's been roughly 50% full (to my surprise I'll admit - thought it would be less). Now on the full buffet sets, seats are being reduced from 113 to 65, ie a 43% reduction. If it were 50% full beforehand then it will be 87% full after the change. I'm guessing as well that this service will have more in 1st east of Swindon than west, so that would indicate that it'll be pretty close to full at some part of the journey.

[JayMac]

Being slightly pedantic, only 1.35, as there are only 17 seats next to the buffet.

And being further pedantic, some buffet coaches have 24 seats. Easy to spot the difference from the outside - 17 seaters have three large windows, 24 seaters have four.

[John R]

Ah, never noticed that (though I usually head for the quiet coach). What's the reason? Is it the buffets that were acquired from another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) some years ago are slightly different (was it MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) as was?)

[Timmer]

Ah, never noticed that (though I usually head for the quiet coach). What's the reason? Is it the buffets that were acquired from another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) some years ago are slightly different (was it MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) as was?)

As built by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)). Some buffets had a larger kitchen and less seating (First class) to act as a Restaurant (3 windows). Other buffets had a much smaller kitchen area and Standard seating (4 windows) Intercity converted these 4 window buffets to First class in the early 90s. Do any of these 4 window buffets still operate on the Western region or were these all converted into Standard coaches by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)?

More information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3#Original_formation

[BBM]

As built by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)). Some buffets had a larger kitchen and less seating (First class) to act as a Restaurant (3 windows). Other buffets had a much smaller kitchen area and Standard seating (4 windows) Intercity converted these 4 window buffets to First class in the early 90s. Do any of these 4 window buffets still operate on the Western region or were these all converted into Standard coaches by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)?

A little Googling took me to this photo page: http://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TRB-402xx

Down the bottom are recent photos of FGW TRBs 40900-40904 which each have 4 windows and appear to have been originally TRSBs - were these the conversions from the early 90s? But it looks like they might have been later purchases?

[devon_metro]

Just to confuse things, some TFBs^▸ (Trailer First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)) were converted to TRFBs^▸ (Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)) to include a larger kitchen. (from 4 windows to 3 windows). These can be seen by one of the large windows simply being painted over as oppose to bodywork.

[Rhydgaled]

There will only be an extra STD coach where there are 3 1st class coaches now - the sets with only 2 1st Class coaches will have half a coach declassified to STD. So there'll be a minimum of 1.5 1st class coaches - and those with a full buffet will have two.

So, will micro-buffet sets be:
43 - TGS - TS - TS - TS - TS - TSMB - TC^▸ (Train Crew, or Travelling Chef, depending on context) - TF - 43? Or will the micro-buffet become a composite coach?

And will the other sets have standard class in the buffet car (like IC225s) and be formed as:
43 - TGS - TS - TS - TS - TS - TSB - TF - TF - 43?

Personally I think having first class seats in the buffet car, but with the buffet end coupled to standard class, is a good idea. I also think 3 full coaches of first class is too much, it should be 2.5 or 1.5 (with the other half of the .5 being the kitchen/buffet). So the IC225s should be formed like the GW^» (Great Western - used as an abbreviation for the area / lines under the Great Western franchise, as opposed to FGW which includes "First", the company operating them too. For tickets - about) IC125s currently are (ie. 2x FO, 1x FirstClassBuffet, 6xTSO) and IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) trains should be formed DTS - 5x TSO^▸ (The Stationary Office (now OPSI), or, possibly Trailer Standard Open (carriage), depending on context) - FirstClassBuffet - FO - DTF (or 6x TSO at the cost of the FO) rather than the current plans to have 5-car sets and have the only kitchen/buffet on the entire set tucked away in the first class driving vehicle.