First Class "Gatecrashed"

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

The reason a TM^‡(resolve) will ask to see the seat reservation slip is to check that you are on the correct train. The seat reservation is a benefit to you, as you can claim a seat if the train is busy. If you are sitting in a different seat, trust me, nobody will give a damn (I certainly don't, and I get accused of being strict! - I take it as a complement  ). If you want to have a conscience about it, take the seat reservation slip out of your reserved seat before sitting down.

At last some common sense appears on this discussion regards Advance ticket seat reservations.

I use Advance tickets all the time, sometimes I sit in the seat reserved for me, sometimes I don't and not once have I been asked to move but would gladly do so if asked by a train manager because I chose to purchase an advance ticket. I have in front of me the official ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) published T&C's card for Advance tickets and I quote:

Where applicable, you must travel in the class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

It's the word applicable thats important here meaning relevant, or lets look at the word application meaning formal request. So I take that as being at the train manager's discrection which could be applied at anytime for whatever reason so if you don't sit in your reserved seat; you may be asked to move. As Flamingo says, the main thing the TM is interested in when checking your reservation is to see that you are not trying to pull as fast one by travelling on the wrong train and I've seen people trying it on and ending up being excessed for their trouble.

Also remember on weekends you can upgrade to weekend first with some IC^▸ (Inter City) TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) with a standard class advance ticket so you wouldn't be sitting in your reserved standard class seat if you've upgraded to First.

[inspector_blakey]

Timmer's right, although technically the holder of an Advance ticket should occupy their allocated seat, this rule is never enforced. I've heard on the grapevine about a few NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) guards enforcing it on very busy trains but have never been challenged by any FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff: like flamingo says, as long as you're on the right train nobody cares.

It's one of those rules that is there but is ignored 99% of the time (in much the same way as byelaw 7, which forbids "[the use of any] instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound...to the annoyance of any person" and is enforcable in any vehicle of any train, not just quiet carriages).

[thetrout]

How do you know, if you were sitting in 1st?

I think you got what you paid for, which is a seat in 1st Class, so I don't think you can complain. Your ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat and 3 vacant seats around the table.

As a regular 1st class traveller myself, I don't have much sympathy with your predicament. These things happen now and again.  ^18.50 seems rather good value for a journey of that distance first class.

If it had been 2 or 3 people then that would have been fair enough, but it wasn't, it was about 15 which I find slightly insulting that i've paid extra for something that 15 others got for free...!

Granted these things do happen, i'm not disputing that, I don't want a whole table to myself, However if the person sat 2 seats down could silence their 3 screaming kids and stop them throwing chocolate buttons... that'd be grand

[Oxman]

"The one that IS never used (but should be) is the one about refusing travel if drunk"

Not 100% true, in my experience. I have known station staff refuse travel to some who have been clearly unfit through drink, sometimes with the advice to drink coffee, sober up, and come back later. Of course, it's only the obviously incapable (or aggressive) who are easily identifiable. 

[Jez]

I often use advance tickets and sometimes I dont sit in the reserved seat. I also only remember one instance of ever being asked to see the seat reservation ticket by the TM^‡(resolve). Usually they just ask to see my journey ticket and arent bothered if its the correct train or not im on.

[Tim]

The question is, am I entitled to claim the difference back off of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) between FC^‡(resolve) and STD??

I don't see why you should get a refund.  You paid for a first class seat and that is what you got.  You didn't pay for a near empty coach. 

What if the coach was full of people all on first class tickets?  Would you feel entitled to a discount then?  If not then your complaint would appear to be that someone else got a better bargin than you did but I don't see why that is any of your business (sorry).

[Mookiemoo]

The question is, am I entitled to claim the difference back off of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) between FC^‡(resolve) and STD??

I don't see why you should get a refund.  You paid for a first class seat and that is what you got.  You didn't pay for a near empty coach. 

What if the coach was full of people all on first class tickets?  Would you feel entitled to a discount then?  If not then your complaint would appear to be that someone else got a better bargin than you did but I don't see why that is any of your business (sorry).

I can see both sides - I am probably of the opinion only FC or people who pay to upgrade should be in FC however I can understand why in some circumstances the TM^‡(resolve) relaxes the rules (and yes it does pee you off - sitting here with a table to myself spread out getting work done - of other FC passengers were here then I'd have no issue however if someone paid SC fare and was taking up space........)

However, if Virgin have the same issue they just declassify first class and you do get a refund on your first class fare.  Or they did last time it happened to me.

[thetrout]

The question is, am I entitled to claim the difference back off of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) between FC^‡(resolve) and STD??

I don't see why you should get a refund.  You paid for a first class seat and that is what you got.  You didn't pay for a near empty coach. 

What if the coach was full of people all on first class tickets? Would you feel entitled to a discount then?  If not then your complaint would appear to be that someone else got a better bargin than you did but I don't see why that is any of your business (sorry).

Had that have been the case, then I wouldn't have been in the slightest bit bothered, because everyone would have paid the premium to sit there. However, On this particular journey, the TM^‡(resolve) decided to offer approximately 15 pax a free First Class upgrade. I'm not one of those passengers that wants a whole table to myself, or even a whole carriage to myself. I don't have an issue sharing my table with someone provided there aren't any nearby empty tables available.

What I am trying to get at, is, I paid a walk up price on a weekend to go into FC. To then be invaded by some screaming kids for over an hour, IMO^▸ (in my opinion) is slightly unfair!

[tramway]

Ok how about this for disparity in cost, and why I would have no hesitation in making FC^‡(resolve) passengers a wee bit uncomfortable if the situation presented itself. (It^s not my fault they let me in)

For a few years I used the last minute deal system for a cheap week in the Canaries around the beginning of December, (a week in the sun for ^150), SC, no frills on the flight and allocated accom on arrival. Bit of a lucky dip and flight times are probably not the best in the world, but what the hell, a great week, cheap booze and duty free, and not once have we been given a shed in the a**e end of nowhere.

Our best result was a week in a fully inclusive, (so sick after 3 days), but were brought down a peg or two on another occasion after saying we had only paid ^xxx that year, but that the two lads from Manchester we were chatting to had won theirs on a radio phone in. How demoralising is that.

thetrout, just wait till GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) starts giving away free tickets for FC travel, then you will have something to complain about.

[IndustryInsider]

thetrout, just wait till GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) starts giving away free tickets for FC^‡(resolve) travel, then you will have something to complain about.

They already do I'm afraid, tramway - certain competitions over the years have featured two free 1st Class tickets to a destination of your choice as the prize.

[tramway]

They must have been on my trip to Plymouth the other week then. 

[John R]

thetrout, just wait till GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) starts giving away free tickets for FC^‡(resolve) travel, then you will have something to complain about.

They already do I'm afraid, tramway - certain competitions over the years have featured two free 1st Class tickets to a destination of your choice as the prize.

And annual season ticket holders have been given 6 free tickets of the same class as your season ticket.

[Tim]

Had that have been the case, then I wouldn't have been in the slightest bit bothered, because everyone would have paid the premium to sit there. However, On this particular journey, the TM^‡(resolve) decided to offer approximately 15 pax a free First Class upgrade. I'm not one of those passengers that wants a whole table to myself, or even a whole carriage to myself. I don't have an issue sharing my table with someone provided there aren't any nearby empty tables available.

What I am trying to get at, is, I paid a walk up price on a weekend to go into FC^‡(resolve). To then be invaded by some screaming kids for over an hour, IMO^▸ (in my opinion) is slightly unfair!

but no more unfare than the fact that some people in your coach will be on cheap advanced fares and some on expensive full price fares.

I'm sorry, but your complain would appear to be driven by little more then envy.

[moonrakerz]

Good news for Zoe !

I bought two Advance First Class tickets from the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website yesterday. It gave me the choice of whether I wanted a reserved seat or not - when I selected "not" it informed me I could sit where ever I wanted.  I still got a reservation ticket when I collected the tickets from the machine, to show the train to travel on, but the coach and seat part just had *****.
Is this a new facility ? I don't recollect seeing it before.

[Btline]

Good news for Zoe !

I bought two Advance First Class tickets from the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website yesterday. It gave me the choice of whether I wanted a reserved seat or not - when I selected "not" it informed me I could sit where ever I wanted.  I still got a reservation ticket when I collected the tickets from the machine, to show the train to travel on, but the coach and seat part just had *****.
Is this a new facility ? I don't recollect seeing it before.

Why risk standing? If the reservation is free, you might as well make one! You don't need to keep to it.