Cancellation rights

[whole diary]

[John R]

OK, this is nothing to do with railways, FGW^▸ (First Great Western), but it does concern public transport and rights when things go wrong.

So here I am with family in Florida, when I should be somewhere over the Atlantic. BA^» (British Airways - about) cancelled our flight (BA2036) this morning, and the earliest they can get us back is on the same flight 2 days later. Of course, they don't tell us why the flight is cancelled, but by trawling various websites I can ascertain that:-

Today's two outbound flights to MCO both arrived.
The flight is shown as cancelled but has actually flown, so presumably crew only.
One of yesterday's outbound flights was diverted to St John's in Newfoundland, and thus arrived 3 hours late (2 hours stop in ST John's.)

I estimate the additional costs we will incur are around ^400, not counting intangible inconviences. However, according to EU^» (European Union - about) denied boarding/cancellation rules, we should be entitled to ^430 per pax for this delay.

So, on the information given, does anyone have any idea whether BA will cough up the full compensation or claim force majeur, and restrict our compensation to actual costs. I have my own hunch as to why the flight was diverted and why that resulted in today's cancellation, but would be interested if anyone has any other theories, as the reason probably has a bearing on the prospects for compensation.

Sorry, if this is a bit off topic for the whole Coffee Shop forum, but I'm sure someone out there will have some ideas that might help.       
 

 

[grahame]

Not sure if this will help ... but many years ago (15 to 20) I and my young son checked in at Heathrow - or rather were supposed to check in - on 14th December for a BA^» (British Airways - about) flight to LAX. The weather was poor and there were a lot of flight changes and data missing from the board.  After an interminable time, we got to the checkin counter and were told the flight had been cancelled because the incoming plane had been diverted to Belfast. To go home and phone in to rebook, or join another queue - the one that stretched the whole length of terminal 4 - to do it at the airport.

I chose to call in from a payphone on the arrivals floor ... and the news was that because the weather was out of the control of the airline, they had no obligation except to put us on the next available flight which was on 28th December (14 days later, after Christmas, you'll note) and "well - it's a cheap fare sir, and seats are limited at that price. And the weather is nothing to do with us. What do you expect".  Frankly, I had expected a bit better.

Message for John R - don't give up.  American had seats on their flight the following day, and BA signed the tickets across to them. It was a huge admin effort to sort that out, including the "needle in a haystack" hunt for the BA representative in terminal 3 to sign the tickets over to AA while my son stood in line.  But an excellent holiday in the end, after a journey out on an AA plane on 15th which was only half full. But I really had to push to find out that I could make that change and set it up.

Footnote - to this day, BA remains my "airline of last resort" ...

Good luck, John.   There's an operator I usually fly with (Virgin Atlantic) who may be able to help more quickly, and I have done Orlando to London with Delta, change at Atlanta.  There may be others from Sanford airport in Orlando too.

Edit to add: I have only skirted your question as to "why" - I'm not an expert so my best is "don't know" but I guess there might have been an operational issue with the plane that meant it had to limp home, stopping again on the way, or there was an isse with liferafts that it couldn't take passengers over water?  I'm not sure just how heavy their flight loadings are at the moment, but I expect that some of the folks on the cancelled flight may have been delayed by a lesser time - probably those who paid a higher fare.  Of course, had it been FGW^▸ (First Great Western), you would have been offered a bus or taxi alternative ...

[Super Guard]

I know some people who may be able to answer your question, so sit tight and i'll get back to you...

[John R]

Thanks for those these answers, and look forward to some more information if available SDA/Guard.

My own theory is as follows:- A pax illness (or similar) over the North Atlantic forced the original diversion. That isn't unheard of. However, the 3 hour delay took the crew's working hours over the point where FAA rules stipulate an additional rest period. So simply delaying next day's departure by 3 hours wasn't possible.
Therefore the best option was to cancel one flight and position the aircraft and crew back to LGW.

If that's the case, then BA^» (British Airways - about) could argue it was indirectly caused by pax action and therefore unforeseen. However, you could counter argue that if the crew scheduling is so fragile that a 3 hour delay results in a subsequent cancellation then that is BA's problem, and EU^» (European Union - about) compensation is due. I'm sure many years ago when I flew to Miami with Virgin the crew had at least a 48 hour turnaround.

Anyway, enough of my theorising. Let's see if the real reason is forthcoming.

Fortunately, we managed to get an extension to our villa, and so our inconvience is two extra days by the pool. But I'm sure there were many pax who arrived at the airport and are not enjoying the extension to their stay quite so much.   

[devon_metro]

Are BA^» (British Airways - about) not able to make you stand-by on Virgin Atlantic?

Sounds like a royal nightmare, at least Florida is a nice place to be stuck!

[Super Guard]

One comment I have received:

No matter what, BA^» (British Airways - about) will have to provide accommodation and meals to the delayed pax. Monetary compensation would depend on the cause of the cancellation.

BTW^▸ (by the way): in case BA did not provide hotel & meals (which in itself violates the EU^» (European Union - about) regulation), keep receipts and claim it back from BA later. Consequential damage is not claimable AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) (e.g. the cost of having to take additional time off work).

In case this was a medical emergency (one of the main reasons I guess to divert there), I'd argue that it was an extraordinary circumstance, and the additional monetary compensation would not apply.

I've replied back asking whether the crew might have been out-of-hours the day after the divert.

[John R]

Are BA^» (British Airways - about) not able to make you stand-by on Virgin Atlantic?

Sounds like a royal nightmare, at least Florida is a nice place to be stuck!

BA did check and all the VA flights were full too. Hardly surprising at the end of the Easter break.

Yes, there are worse hardships to endure! 

[Super Guard]

A few more comments on this:

I think if I were your friend, and looked like being stuck for two days just because the flights are full post Easter holidays, I'd be proactively looking for other options, and presenting them to BA^» (British Airways - about) e.g. 'the UA flight leaves in 6 hours and has seats available and we'd like to be on it thanks'. The 'we don't have any seats available until two weeks on Saturday so you'll have to wait until then' is a bit poor really - BA are trying to not have to pay for the transfer, and are willing to increase the inconvenience to their passengers to save some money - that's not good customer service

(and yes, I think BA will try and weasel out of paying the EU^» (European Union - about) comp. But your friend will really need to know exactly why they are claiming the flight has been cancelled).

My understanding is that some passengers were put on the TPA flight and a further aircraft was sent out from LHR (a 767) to bring home those who were unable to be accommodated on the TPA service. That flight arrived at LHR this morning and passengers were transferred by bus to LGW. So passengers were delayed by one night.

It's unfortunate that it happened over this weekend as flights coming back from MCO and TPA have been 100% full due to people returning from the Easter break.

For this type of cancellation, the compensation payable is ^600 per passenger plus the incidental expenses.

If your friend wants to pursue this under EU compensation regulation 261/2004, I would suggest that your friend posts the details on (Link Removed, feel free to PM me if interested) and asks for assistance from the board members there.

Incidentally, my own return from Orlando on BA2036 was also cancelled last August!

Although do remember that BA avoid the application of the EU regulations if they give benefits/compensation in accordance with the law of the place of departure - i.e. if they are entitled to give less under US rules, they probably avoid EU rules by meeting the US requirements.

That said, there may be liability for damages suffered because of the delay under the various other international conventions.

[John R]

Thanks SDA/Guard

Well BA^» (British Airways - about) certainly didn't offer us anything earlier than the flight we got, so I'm intrigued by the comment about nobody being more than 1 day late. I'll be interested to hear what they say about that when we claim. I'll also send you a separate PM for that link.

Thanks very much for your assistance. Just got home, so am somewhat fatigued as you might expect.   

[vacman]

they should build an "atlanic tunnel" and catch the train ha ha 

[Zoe]

I heard at least some airlines have a policy of overbooking flights so in theory if everyone turns up, some won't get on.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Agreed: Easyjet do it, for example. 

[John R]

Most full cost scheduled airlines do it, on the basis that pax with fully flexible tickets can np show and switch flights at no cost.  So if they didn't overbook, there would be empty seats, which is very inefficient.

That's fair enough, (just) but where I have a problem is where your ticket is completely non-refundable if you no show, yet the airline still overbooks, which is the case with low cost airlines. In that instance, I think it's a highly dubious practice to overbook to make more money in the hope that some of your pax won't turn up. Easyjet started this some years ago, but never overbook the final flight of the day IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) (or at least that was their initial policy).

I also think on airlines with a mix of flexible and non flexible tickets that the only passengers that should be forcibly bumped are those with flexible tickets, for the same reason. Unfortunately, as these are the most expensive tickets, that doesn't happen, but the principle is the same - if you can't cancel your seat and get a refund, then the airline shouldn't be able to allocate it to someone else.     

[John R]

And the story has a happy ending, with a letter today from BA^» (British Airways - about) confirming that compensation of Euro 2,400 is due, and will be sent shortly. In addition, they've already paid expenses of ^280 relating to additional villa hire, car hire costs etc.

I reckon that's a very satisfactory outcome! And thanks to SDA/Guard as well, whose information helped craft my letter accordingly.

[Super Guard]

Excellent news John & you're welcome.... invoice is in the post