Ticket Machines - machines missing or broken, and penalty fare implications (merged topics)

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

Especially when you can buy on board and mostly ticket checks are done between nailsea and bristol

[vacman]

They'd be better taking the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) away from some of the vandal hot spots completely and putting them at some of the les vandalised stations where they are needed, i.e. along the Falmouth and St Ives lines! (famous last words) but the Cornwall and Devon TVM's seem to recieve a lot less attention from the local pond life than elswere on the network.

[Tim]

There needs to be a new design of TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) which take cards only and which are therefore less appealing to thieves and simpler and cheaper to make and repair so that they cost less to fix when they are subjected to mindless vandalism.

[smokey]

Having worked on these Scheidt & Bachmann TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s a heck of the cost is to make these machines, cash secure.

None Cash Machines could I expect be around ^10,000, the Machines that take cash cost around ^28,000.

As a foot note the Pond life that attacked these Machines didn't get anywhere close to getting any Money out.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) press release:

FOUR JAILED FOR 15 YEARS FOLLOWING TICKET MACHINE THEFTS ACROSS SOUTH LONDON

Four men who broke into ticket vending machines (TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)) and stole the takings have been jailed for a total of 15 years after an investigation by British Transport Police (BTP) detectives.

Nicu Zubascu (25), Alin Staicu (24), Marian Bara (22) and Vasilla Maris (22) were sentenced at Blackfriars Crown Court on Wednesday, 15 September after pleading guilty to conspiracy to steal.

Between 11 January 2010 and 25 May 2010, the gang of four carried out a total of 22 thefts from TVMs in stations across South London.

Detective Constable Karl Goyns, one of the investigating officers, said: ^Each time the men would arrive at the station in the early hours of the morning and carry out reconnaissance before attacking the machine. The men always struck as a group of four with two acting as lookouts and getaway drivers, while two used crowbars and screwdrivers to break into the machines. While in total just ^8,000 was stolen from the machines, the damage to them was estimated at nearly ^350,000, a huge cost to the rail industry.^

Following the thefts, BTP officers launched Operation Latchet, a proactive response to the reported thefts, in which officers from the Area Crime Unit, along with security personnel from Southern Railway worked to gather intelligence, eventually leading to the arrests just three days after the launch of the operation.

DC^▸ (Direct Current) Goyns added: ^At 3.30am on Tuesday, 25 May, police received a report from covert personnel at Riddlesdown station in Surrey that a vehicle had been acting suspiciously. Officers attended and all four of the men were arrested at the scene, they were later interviewed, charged and remanded in custody until they appeared in court.^

At the sentencing Zubascu received four-and-a-half years in prison, Maris was handed a 45 month jail term, with Staicu and Bara both receiving three-and-a-half years.

DC Goyns added: ^Not only was the damage caused by these four extremely costly, but their actions put the machines out of action, impacting on passengers who want to use them.  We welcome the custodial sentence handed down to these men and hope it sends a clear message to those who think they can get away with this type of crime."

A spokesperson for Southern Railway added: ^Although this criminal activity cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds, the real cost was the inconvenience this caused to thousands of our passengers. We are grateful to all concerned who contributed to the arrest, conviction and imprisonment of these thieves.^

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Family members jailed for rail ticket machine raids

Three members of a Bedfordshire family have been jailed for stealing ^16,000 from rail station ticket machines.

Mark Loveridge, 34, his stepson Murphy, 19, both from Cople, Bedfordshire, and his brother Albey, 42, of Biggleswade, targeted 20 stations.

These were in Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire and Essex, Cambridge Crown Court heard.

Mark Loveridge was jailed for four years, Murphy Loveridge 10 months and Albey Loveridge three years.

Judge Anthony Bate said the attacks were persistent and brazen.

The court heard they had committed more than 50 offences between March 2008 and July 2009.

Prosecutors said the thieves attached a rope to machines then ripped off the fronts with a car.

The court heard more than ^68,000 of damage was caused.

[vacman]

at the vandal hot spots they should have card only TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s AND Pertis machines, anyone who wants to rob 200 quids worth of 5p's from a Pertis would have a nasty shock!

[Chris from Nailsea]

To be fair, vacman, I wouldn't describe NLS as a 'vandal hotspot'.

This most recent attack - which was the first for over a year, I believe? - was not mere vandalism: it was a deliberately planned attempted theft, by an organised gang.  The degree of violence used, involving the use of cutting tools on the machine casing, shows that, I think.

My point has always been that informing everyone (whether casual teenage vandal or family of organised thieves ) that there is no cash in these machines should have saved the loss of some ^28,000 worth of an ATM^‡(resolve) at our station.

Perhaps, as you suggest, any replacement TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) should be of a 'card only' design - which would not even raise the possibility of cash being contained within it - for the benefit of our less honest members of 'the big society'?

[vacman]

The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at NLS has been done in a few times according to the log but I wasn't singling out NLS in my post, by having card only TVM's is only a half measure, there needs to be some way for people wanting to pay cash so that fare evasion can be controlled, with a Pertis machine the customer would have a permit to travel to prove where they got on the train so that upon arrival at gatelines etc they couldn't say "last stop mate".

[Tim]

with a Pertis machine the customer would have a permit to travel to prove where they got on the train

True.  Depends if you see TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) as primarily to help enforcement of penalty fares or merely to make ticket buying easier for honest passengers. 

[vacman]

with a Pertis machine the customer would have a permit to travel to prove where they got on the train

True.  Depends if you see TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) as primarily to help enforcement of penalty fares or merely to make ticket buying easier for honest passengers. 

The whole point of the TVM's being installed was for the enforcement of the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) schemes!

[thetrout]

I have a feeling i'm going to open a tin of worms here but...

The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s at Trowbridge have been removed because of vandalism, but Trowbridge is a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station, but the ticket office is only open till about 18:00 I believe...!

So I can't see how a PF can be enforced outside of these hours, when there is no way there to buy a ticket... Obviously if I were in that situation, I would seek out a guard to buy a ticket. But most people will just get on and wait for the guard to come to them, which they don't always do...!

[Brucey]

I have a feeling i'm going to open a tin of worms here but...

The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s at Trowbridge have been removed because of vandalism, but Trowbridge is a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station, but the ticket office is only open till about 18:00 I believe...!

So I can't see how a PF can be enforced outside of these hours, when there is no way there to buy a ticket... Obviously if I were in that situation, I would seek out a guard to buy a ticket. But most people will just get on and wait for the guard to come to them, which they don't always do...!

The NR^» (Network Rail - home page) website now says that Trowbridge is not a Penalty Fares station: (Trowbridge - next trains).html" target="_blank">http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/TRO.html

[inspector_blakey]

Simple, it can't.

If there's no way to buy a ticket (and in the case of a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), that means in full working order, accepting both cash and cards) then a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) can't be charged.

Similar situation at Keynshm, for example. TVMs withdrawn some time ago, but it's still a penalty fares station because there's a ticket office there that operates limited hours on weekday mornings. Those are the only times that you could be penalty-fared whilst travelling.

Don't quite understand why people get so upset about this when the rules really are very clear, and are even explained on the nasty yellow posters!

[vacman]

quite right inspector, if the ticket office is open you can be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d, if it's closed you cant!