Ticket Machines - machines missing or broken, and penalty fare implications (merged topics)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

I take your point, blakey. We can't be certain as to the chain of events.

Although maybe, in this case, benefit of the doubt from the TM^‡(resolve) would've been warranted. I don't know many 75 year old grandmothers of eleven who deliberately fare-dodge. Also not a particularly good idea on the TM's part to have the police waiting at Euston for the good samaritan who organised a whip-round.

The TM has chinged ^115 and whatever the outcome after Virgin investigated I doubt he lost that particular bit of commision.

[Oxman]

Some observations:

The time at which TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) will sell off peak tickets is programmable, but not by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)! They have to get the TVM supplier to alter the times. Generally, they are set to start selling a few minutes after the last peak service has departed. In some cases, this doesn't leave much time, Reading used to be 0928 peak service followed by 0935 off peak - don't know if it still is. Bear in mind that the definition of London off peak is trains arriving at 1000 or after. Minor timetable changes can cause anomalies to arise.

Can't generalise about gateline staff in Manchester, or elsewhere, but generally FGW gateline staff are instructed not to allow advance ticket holders onto the platforms until an appropriate time - to avoid a passenger boarding an early service. Of course, other passengers get on the platforms by connecting off other services. For example, they regularly turn up at Reading from Gatwick on an earlier service than booked (and sometimes on a later one - the Gatwick-Reading part of their journey is not restricted) and ask the platform staff if they can travel on the next available to Bristol/Wales/West Country. The strict answer is No. But, sometimes, it is suggested that they ask the TM^‡(resolve) if he/she is willing to take them. Often enough, if the train is lightly loaded, the TM will say Yes. End result is that some jet lagged passengers remember that they were looked after by FGW. And, as long as it is made clear that this is a one off, discretionary situation, no harm is done.

[inspector_blakey]

Although staff may have been trained not to let passengers with advance tickets through too far ahead of time, the programming on the barriers doesn't seem to reflect that. A couple of times I've ended up arriving somewhat early for my booked train with an advance ticket so gone through the barriers to get refreshments and wait for my train, and the ticket has never been rejected by the barrier.

[ChrisB]

The barriers can't be programmed for particular timed trains, and nor can the mag strip on the ticket - just for Peak or off-peak times....

[JayMac]

The time at which TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) will sell off peak tickets is programmable, but not by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)! They have to get the TVM supplier to alter the times. Generally, they are set to start selling a few minutes after the last peak service has departed. In some cases, this doesn't leave much time, Reading used to be 0928 peak service followed by 0935 off peak - don't know if it still is. Bear in mind that the definition of London off peak is trains arriving at 1000 or after. Minor timetable changes can cause anomalies to arise.

So these machines are programmed with all the different Off Peak/Super Off Peak and Off peak Day/Super Off Peak Day timings are they?

For instance Reading to any station via London outside the Network Area (Former NSE^▸ (Network South East) area) are unrestricted on the London bound journey and only time restricted from London to destination. So as there are no maximum connection times you are free to take any service to London, regardless of walk-up ticket type.

Reading to Oxford CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) is after 0900, Reading to Hanborough is 0845 (means you can travel Off Peak to Hanborough on the 0852, but not to Oxford on the same train!)

Reading to Wesbury SVR is after 0835, SSR is after 1030 (will the TVM stop you buying a SVR to Westbury between 1710-1859 as well?).

Reading to Leamington Spa SVR is 0930.

Reading to Gatwick Airport CDR is 0815.

Reading to Paddington SVR is depart after 0930, but the CDR is arrive after 1000. 

Reading to Bournemouth CDR is after 0930 and not between 1530-1815.

And all this, and countless others no doubt, is correctly programmed into TVMs is it?

[Oxman]

Bignose, I was attempting to help answer the original question, which was about off peak tickets to London, which is why I couched my post in terms of travel from Reading to London. I don't know if TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) handle all of the restrictions for all of the possible ticket types and destinations - being computer based, they certainly could if they were programmed to do it, but you would have to question the cost of this versus the usefulness, and the cost of keeping it up to date. Conversely, it makes sound economic sense to program in the time limits for the principal traffic flow - to London.

[JayMac]

.....it makes sound economic sense to program in the time limits for the principal traffic flow - to London.

Thereby inconviencing the passengers on that principal traffic flow.

I really can't see how the programming of machines with arbitrary cut off times is of any help in protecting revenue. Why do it for one flow and not others?

The first Off Peak Day (CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) train to London from Reading is the 0842 all shacks to Waterloo (ticket will say London Terminals), purchasing this ticket will get you through the barriers at Reading at the appropriate time and if unused to the difference between 'slows' and 'fasts' you could mistakenly board a 'barred' train and, depending on on board checks, platforming and barrier programming at Paddington, get away with the incorrect fare.

With Off Peak (SVS/SVR) fares there is only 6 minutes between the last Peak service to Paddington from Reading at 0927 and the first Off Peak at 0933. So if its as Oxman states; "Generally, they are set to start selling a few minutes after the last peak service has departed", then that reduces the chances of someone legitimately catching the 0933 and maybe even the 0934 and 0937.

As passengers we are told to arrive at the station in good time to purchase our tickets and TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s should facilitate this not hinder it.

[matt473]

Problem with only being able to pass barriers at a "reasonable" time though is for the likes of myself who like to visit the pub at Temple Meads for example for food and a pint before travelling whilst also just relaxing in the station before I catch my train. If barriers only prevented access to platforms then fair enough but with barriers that prevent access to majority of the station passangers like myself will lose out as will the businesses which will ultimately lose trade if passangers can only access main area close to departure time

[Worcester_Passenger]

I seem to remember that the magnetic stripe on the back of the tickets was designed a long time ago, and that it actually contains surprisingly-little information. In particular, there wasn't enough space for the whole of the ticket code ("SVR"/"SVS" etc). Instead, there's only the first two characters - which means that the stripe can't differentiate between singles and returns, which may well have different time restrictions.

Do any of the industry insiders know whether this is indeed the case (or has it been improved over the years?), and the extent to which it's the source of ticket issues at the gates?

[super tm]

Although staff may have been trained not to let passengers with advance tickets through too far ahead of time, the programming on the barriers doesn't seem to reflect that. A couple of times I've ended up arriving somewhat early for my booked train with an advance ticket so gone through the barriers to get refreshments and wait for my train, and the ticket has never been rejected by the barrier.

Barriers cant read times.  That what the guard is for    Anyway the ticket you put in does not have a time on it.  Only the reservation does and that does not work the barriers.

[johoare]

Well this morning again at about 8.55. they were selling off peak tickets travelcards already in the place where the peak rate travelcards usually are so it must be a new enhancement or something useful..

Whether or not they would work in the barriers I don't know as I was buying a weekly peak ticket and that option was still there.. Not that I should have bothered... I travelled off peak and very slowly..thanks to someone (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/NR^» (Network Rail - home page)/someone in the signal box/someone else).. see seperate post/rant...

[smokey]

Time we went back to Singles, Returns and Day Returns.

Ok still allowing Prebooked cheap Advance tickets from the WEB.

[devon_metro]

Is this a new policy, or was Paignton simply out of action. Whilst dropping somebody off at Paignton earlier this evening, there were a number of people mulling round the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) which had a sign stating 'Card Only' on.

I would imagine that the railway lost a number of customers considering not everybody carries cards round with them; especially when the conductor, on the Voyager that the person I dropped off, did not collect fares. Seems the railway has lost ^3.30!

Whilst I can appreciate the security aspects of leaving large amounts of cash in TVMs does this not present a case for longer ticket office opening hours - condering it was only 6pm and Paignton was closed.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Both TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Nailsea & Backwell have been 'card only' for about a year now - so anyone wanting to pay cash, outside the station opening hours of 06:30 to 09:30, will have to buy their ticket on board.

Revenue protection, in such cases, is indeed an issue - although Julian Crow, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) General Manager for West of England, did assure me yesterday that their current 'commission terms' for staff do encourage them to sell tickets on board.

C. 

[Oxman]

There have been a number of thefts of cash from TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) over the last two years - FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have been targetted, particularly in the South East. The attacks do an enormous amount of damage to the machines - it requires a great deal of force to get into them. The thiefs usually get away with only a few hundred pounds, but cause thousands of pounds of damage, and take the machine out of service for an extended period whilst it is rebuilt.

The economics are "simples". Its not worth encouraging attacks for a few hundred pounds of cash. The loss of revenue whilst the machines are out of service plus the cost of repair is much greater than the cash revenue lost by switching the machines to card only.

In truth, and perhaps sad to say. the vast majority of passengers have cards and prefer to use them. How often have you been held up in a shop whilst the person in front pays a few pounds for their magazines, etc. with their magic plastic?