Ticket Machines - machines missing or broken, and penalty fare implications (merged topics)

[whole diary]

[tramway]

Trowbridge again OOA and wrapped in Police tape. Looks quite a professional job with a single lock targetted, no crowbar marks down the outside this time.

Filton's ATM^‡(resolve) is now back in action in it's new 'hut' and digital Doris has a new battery in her watch.

[John R]

And one of the machines at Nailsea had it's glass screen shattered this morning.

[CE02]

Thanks for the continued information. While on the Reading to Didcot line on the weekend i noticed TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) were all in use at Tilehurst,Pangborne , Didcot Parkway and Cholsey. Goring & Streetleys machine was out of service but not vandalised . Rather interesting was the fact that all the stations permit to travel machines had been locked out of use with a sign telling all customers to use the machines it looks like the days of permit to travels are well and truely numbered on FGW^▸ (First Great Western). The machine at Langley is still missing .

[Oxman]

Pertis machines serve no purpose when a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) is available. The rules are you must pay before you travel if the means exist to pay. So, if the TVM is working, using Pertis won't count and you could still be liable for a penalty fare. Hence, it is easier to turn off the Pertis machines and avoid any misunderstanding.

The status of TVMs is remotely monitored. If someone claims a TVM is not working, this can easily be verified.

Interesting stuff earlier in this thread about who uses TVMs and who prefers ticket offices. Tickets on Departure were made available (on the S&B machines) about a year ago and now account for a significant proportion of the business they do. Watch for increasing availability of season tickets through them. Usage of the TVMs continues on an upwards trend - so they are certainly popular with regular users. TVMs at large stations have a different customer profile from those at unstaffed stations, of course.

The other significant trend, of course, is use of the internet to purchase tickets in advance (and collected from the TVMs). Its a lot cheaper to have customers do the research and booking onilne, than to provide ticket office staff to do the work for them. There is not much margin in having a sales adviser spend 15 minutes researching the cheapest way of getting from A to B and back, just to sell ^15 of advance tickets. Hence the closures of travel centres and incentives to book online.

[G.Uard]

Yes Oxman, reading back, my post on this subject was confusing.  I should have mentioned that Pertis machines, (which are obsolescent anyway I believe), are a separate beast.  That said, I will be understandably more sympathetic towards a customer who approaches me for an excess to say Gloucester, on a ticket, (purchased from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)) and valid from Yate to Cam & Dursley, then I would to someone who claims to have got on at Temple Meads but doesn't have a ticket to show when challenged.

[inspector_blakey]

Both machines at Keynsham have been physically removed, and I am told by a member of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff they will not be replaced due to repeated vandalism. Which might make life interesting if the Bristol area penalty fares licence is ever granted...

Going back to the Pertis machines they do have a purpose but are only really any use if combined with effective, regular on-board checks: when a permit has been purchased it indicates where the passenger boarded so prevents any fraudulent attempts to purchase ticket for a shorter journey than has been made. However, ticket checks on board DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) services in the Thames Valley (where penalty fares do apply) are so infrequent that Pertis machines would probably allow passengers to make lots and lots of journeys between unstaffed/ungated stations for 10p each.

[paul7575]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) seem to lead the way with this sort of thing, they have removed the vast majority of their Pertis machines, their explanation being that too many people saw them as an aid to fraudulent travel.  The only two remaining in South Hants are at Millbrook and Redbridge, but they are a new rugged design by S&B - must be the SWT designated bandit country, as even Sholing has a full TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), although it is in a strengthened enclosure with roller shutter door.

Therefore any rule that may have existed that made Pertis machines a compulsory fit in PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) areas seems to have been overcome...

Paul

[inspector_blakey]

Permits to travel have always been a "loophole" in the penalty fare regulations. In fact, I believe no fraud is committed if a passenger purchases a permit (in the absence of a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) selling the appropriate ticket) and then completes their journey without either encountering a ticket examiner/RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))/conductor or an open booking office. In this situation the railway has not given the opportunity to purchase a ticket.

The main loophole currently seems to be that the local chancers in the Oxford area know which stations are in the penalty fares scheme and which aren't, so they will make a long journey with no ticket on a DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) service and turn up at the barrier ticketless but claiming to have travelled from one of the stations from which PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) don't apply. Undoubtedly in doing so they commit an offence but I don't see how this could be proved and prosecuted.

[vacman]

Permits to travel have always been a "loophole" in the penalty fare regulations. In fact, I believe no fraud is committed if a passenger purchases a permit (in the absence of a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) selling the appropriate ticket) and then completes their journey without either encountering a ticket examiner/RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))/conductor or an open booking office. In this situation the railway has not given the opportunity to purchase a ticket.

The main loophole currently seems to be that the local chancers in the Oxford area know which stations are in the penalty fares scheme and which aren't, so they will make a long journey with no ticket on a DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) service and turn up at the barrier ticketless but claiming to have travelled from one of the stations from which PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) don't apply. Undoubtedly in doing so they commit an offence but I don't see how this could be proved and prosecuted.

You would be surprised how often some inspectors do plain clothes follows on regular fare evaders in the thames valley area.

[CE02]

Me and my friend just had a very enjoyable jaunt on the sleeper thursday night from Paddington to Penzanze spending yesterday wizzing around the Cornish rail network on the great value Cornish rover. This trip gave me a good opportunity to check the status of TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) in Cornwall and parts of Devon which were as followed.

Penzanze (Not in PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme?) - Full working order
Truro - Full working order inside ticket office not sure if ticket office is locked up in evening
St Austell - Could not view machine from train
Par - Full working order
Bodmin Parkway - Full working order
Liskeard - Full working order
Plymouth (Shere) x2 - Full working order along with ticket barriers at 19:20
Totnes - Out of service but not missing

[vacman]

The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s in cornwall seem to be pretty reliable, St Austell is in the process of being moved at the moment.

[Chris from Nailsea]

'Yate station ticket machine under threat', from the Bristol Evening Post today:

A group set up to make improvements at Yate railway station is demanding the return of a ticket machine after it was targeted by vandals.
The station is only staffed at certain times of the day so the machine allows passengers to buy tickets while they wait on the platform.
It has been vandalised previously but the Friends of Yate Station were told that train operator First Great Western, which is having the machine repaired after the latest attack, was considering not putting it back.
The Friends, set up to be a voice for passengers using the station, said if the machine was not available, it would cause major problems.
Passengers would have to buy a ticket on the train instead, but in the rush hour trains are often so busy that the guard has not got time to get to everyone.
That leaves paying at the destination the main other option, or in some cases not paying at all if the station has no one to take the fare.
The group has written to the station operator saying it would be "deeply unhappy" if the ticket machine was removed permanently.
It also suggested relocating it to a position where it would be more visible, such as on nearby Station Road.

For the article, see http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Yate-station-ticket-machine-threat/article-923332-detail/article.html

[Zoe]

Hi, last week I went from Newton Abbot to Plymouth.  There were many people queuing in the ticket office, most likely due to the lack of a "todays tickets only" window there so I decided to use the ticker machine.  I selected off peak day return and as I have a Devon & Cornwall railcard I selected this when it asked for railcards.  I then pressed the button to confirm this and I was immediately taken but to the start screen.  I went through again selecting my railcard and was again taken back to the start screen.  I then went through a third time without selecting a railcard as I didn't want to risk missing the train and the ticket was issued.  Does anyone know why it wouldn't let me select a Devon & Cornwall railcard?

[eightf48544]

Seems like a programme error. Unless there's a time restriction and you were too early.

Machines in the Thames Valley won't issue 4 for price of 2 tickets.

[vacman]

Hi, last week I went from Newton Abbot to Plymouth.  There were many people queuing in the ticket office, most likely due to the lack of a "todays tickets only" window there so I decided to use the ticker machine.  I selected off peak day return and as I have a Devon & Cornwall railcard I selected this when it asked for railcards.  I then pressed the button to confirm this and I was immediately taken but to the start screen.  I went through again selecting my railcard and was again taken back to the start screen.  I then went through a third time without selecting a railcard as I didn't want to risk missing the train and the ticket was issued.  Does anyone know why it wouldn't let me select a Devon & Cornwall railcard?

May have been the ticket type? D&C railcard is ONLY valid with Off-Peak tickets