New Chiltern Railways leaflet

[whole diary]

[Btline]

Chiltern now have a leaflet which lets you "see the Chiltern alternative".

It has a map with the Chiltern Line, WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and Cotswold line on it.

It then lists off the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) (and VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises)) /FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stations, and the "Chiltern alternative". The map even gives driving directions!

Chiltern must be cashing in with (a) the pathetic performance of the WCML and (b) Cotswold single track/ poor FGW service!

When Chiltern get to Oxford... well - let the battle commence!

[Not from Brighton]

Is that going to be a serious competitor to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services to London?  The route isn't any more direct and the rolling stock isn't as fast.  I'm confused, I'm sure Chiltern wouldn't be doing it if they were at a disadvantage.

[eightf48544]

You have to admire Chiltern they don't care who they upset.

They even leafleted Taplow a couple of years back extolling High Wycombe Beconsfield and Gerrards Cross as alternatives to Maidenhead Taplow and Burnham and the Marlow branch. This was when TV performance was in the 70s,

Re Oxford I think the main focus is on users from the proposed North Oxford Park and Ride station. They reckon they could get a good deal of the  North Oxfordshire, East Gloucestershire and South Warkwickshire traffic which currently uses Oxford and the Cotswold line. Also they might well be cheaper!

They are also hoping to scoop up the Japanese tourist to Bicester Village who could then go on to Oxford.

Lets hope they get the link it will give real competion  to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), if we are to have competition. More importantly it will  provide another valuable link in the rail network, if we regard railways as a public transport system available to the maximum number of people to make as many journies to as many destinations as they want.

[Tim]

Is that going to be a serious competitor to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services to London?  The route isn't any more direct and the rolling stock isn't as fast.  I'm confused, I'm sure Chiltern wouldn't be doing it if they were at a disadvantage.

cheaper fares, more and cheaper parking especially at the North of Oxford parkway station, better service, less overcrowding.  i don't think they are planning to make most of their money from the Oxford city centre to London market although I don't think their planned journey time is much worse.

And thanks to all the bad newspaper publicity a few years ago First has a pretty bad reputation with the general non-train-travelling public for being bl**y expensive and unrealible (rightly or wrongly it does)

[Btline]

This leaflet includes the Marlow branch!

The overall time-tabled journey time may be slower (including driving further). But once you add Cotswold delay time, and general FGW^▸ (First Great Western) delay time; coupled with the cheaper fares, MUCH better service and better rolling stock; then people will be tempted.

Same goes for LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)/VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line). The shoddy WCML upgrade will be testing LM/VT's passengers to the limit. They may have to get up a bit earlier, but at least they know they'll get to work on time. (and Marylebone is nicer than Euston to wait in the evening)

Obviously, Chiltern are no good for First Class passengers - since on Chiltern, "everyone is First Class!"

[willc]

Sorry, but where is all this delay time? As I pointed out in Slack, in Across the West, that issue has pretty much been killed stone dead by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s current performance.

If the Cotswold Line service is reliable and punctual, almost no-one is going to bother with driving all the way over to a Chiltern station, whatever the supposed advantages.

And if anyone thinks First are just going to let Chiltern have things all their own way then you need to wise up. You don't go from being the Aberdeen area bus operator - First Group was born from an employee buyout of the old Grampian Regional Transport operation (general manager one Moir Lockhead) when buses were deregulated in the late 1980s - to an international transport conglomerate in 20 years by pussy-footing around.

I've noted previously that FGW are already more than competitive price-wise off-peak with the Go-Ahead and Stagecoach London-Oxford coach operations and will be more than capable of sticking up for themselves in the face of Chiltern if they feel the need to.

By the time the first Chiltern train runs - projected for May 2013 - the Cotswold Line redoubling will be long completed, and the new FGW DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) will be available, so they will be ready for a fight if necessary.

On the other hand, Chiltern themselves say their aim is not to take Great Western route traffic and do make the not unreasonable point that Cambridge already has two rail routes to London ^ and rail^s market share of travel to and from London is double that of Oxford.

[Btline]

Chiltern will be encouraging people who switched away from the train after years of a diabolical services. It will take those passengers a long time to be won back. Of course, once such a passenger has travelled with Chiltern, they won't look back!

And whatever the current punctuality, with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) I would always leave more time. It is FAR more likely for something to go wrong than on Chiltern.

Chiltern will also want to poach people off the Marlow branch, citing direct trains to London.

[willc]

Chiltern will be encouraging people who switched away from the train after years of a diabolical services. It will take those passengers a long time to be won back. Of course, once such a passenger has travelled with Chiltern, they won't look back!

And whatever the current punctuality, with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) I would always leave more time. It is FAR more likely for something to go wrong than on Chiltern.

Chiltern will also want to poach people off the Marlow branch, citing direct trains to London.

However pious Chiltern may be about not poaching other operators' traffic, it's clear from these leaflets and the previous newspaper ads that that's exactly what they are up to at present, especially if commuting into London in general is falling off and they want to maintain their market share as best they can.

Do we really want people driving from places with railway stations to different stations? It makes no sense at all.

And you seem curiously ungrateful about, or unwilling to acknowledge the turnround in punctuality. A glance at the FGW website at pretty much any time of day now will show that the biggest problem these days is short-formed services which suggests a rolling stock fleet that is still stretched to the limit. EG at present there are four alterations, three of which are short-formed West DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and the other is what, judging by the trolley catering note, is a 2+7 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) instead of a 2+8 on a Cheltenham service.

[IndustryInsider]

I agree with Btline in so much as the 'once bitten, twice shy' feeling that experiences on the Cotswold Line last year might have prompted will cause damage to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) image that will take a while to repair - especially with the occasional traveller. If they know driving to a Chiltern station is a safe bet then they will be prepared to drive. I overheard a conversation between two very well-to-do ladies in first class on the first off-peak up service a few weeks ago (just before the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was taken off the service) bemoaning the fact that we were 10 minutes late and that the train runs 30 minutes later than it used to. 'But it's always late!' was the gist of the conversation, before one of them extolled the virtues of the Chiltern service - with her only complaint being the lack of 1st Class. Next time they turn up for that train and a grubby turbo turns up, I doubt we'll see them again for a while!

However, FGW does have an ideal chance to repair the damage by the positive image the redoubling will have. They should make the most of it with a massive publicity drive. That combined with the actual fact the service has improved and is set to improve further as a result of the works will hopefully win back much of the custom.

[Not from Brighton]

Let's hope the arrangements for travel during the works are satisfactory, and that they don't over-run.  Lets not have "West Coast II: the revenge of the over-running engineering works!".

[eightf48544]

Chiltern will be encouraging people who switched away from the train after years of a diabolical services. It will take those passengers a long time to be won back. Of course, once such a passenger has travelled with Chiltern, they won't look back!

And whatever the current punctuality, with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) I would always leave more time. It is FAR more likely for something to go wrong than on Chiltern.

Chiltern will also want to poach people off the Marlow branch, citing direct trains to London.

However pious Chiltern may be about not poaching other operators' traffic, it's clear from these leaflets and the previous newspaper ads that that's exactly what they are up to at present, especially if commuting into London in general is falling off and they want to maintain their market share as best they can.

Do we really want people driving from places with railway stations to different stations? It makes no sense at all.

And you seem curiously ungrateful about, or unwilling to acknowledge the turnround in punctuality. A glance at the FGW website at pretty much any time of day now will show that the biggest problem these days is short-formed services which suggests a rolling stock fleet that is still stretched to the limit. EG at present there are four alterations, three of which are short-formed West DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and the other is what, judging by the trolley catering note, is a 2+7 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) instead of a 2+8 on a Cheltenham service.

Both btline and willc are both correct.

Chiltern does have a better image than FGW particularly for reliability and punctuality. It's been hard won when they first took over the line was at the bottom of league and much reviled. But with their investment in redoubling and new trains (first new trains after privatisation?) they deserve to be successful.

Chiltern is blatently poaching FGW passengers and yes it does seem silly as willc says for people to drive from one town with a station to another with a station. But that's the way DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) and the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) have set it up, they want competiton between TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), the fact that people drive further and thus pollute more to get to another's TOCs staion that's Ok. It's called joined up government.

Yes FGWs punctuality has improved enourmously in fact I'm glad I no longer commute as I won't be getting my regular 5% discount on my annual ticket I had every year from 2000 to 2005. In fact even with fare rise I was paying less when I finished than in previous years.


But as industry insider says it takes a long time to win back a lost reputation and also the Cotswold line will be subject extensive engineering works over the summer. The proof of the pudding will be how the punctuality improves once the redoubling is complete and becomes fully operational. Although as he says there is still the problem of the overstretched train fleet.

Let's hope the arrangements for travel during the works are satisfactory, and that they don't over-run.  Lets not have "West Coast II: the revenge of the over-running engineering works!".

I hope Networkrail have learnt the West Coast lesson, however I fear that they might have gone too far the other way with less work scheduled for each blockcade so overall the work takes longer and needs more blockades to complete.

An interesting conundrum. Which is worse an overunning blockade but the work gets done in one hit or two separate blockades where half the work is done in each?  Something to ponder.

[Btline]

I agree that it is sad that people have to drive more to get to the station, but as other posters say - it's called privatisation, it's called competition. Chiltern Railways are the biggest success of privatisation, causing two large TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to get their act together.

Remember, even if punctuality and reliability improve (so it is slightly nearer Chiltern's), and the service becomes hourly, there will still be many Turbos - longer distant passengers might prefer to drive and use a Clubman. Those First Class ladies will probably find out that a Clubman is the same standard as First Class in a Turbo.

NB: Chiltern's main "poaching ground" is the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), where little/no extra driving is required.

[willc]

even if punctuality and reliability improve (so it is slightly nearer Chiltern's)

I'll say it again - it has improved and it is near Chiltern! Those recent numbers speak for themselves. And even Chiltern's trains have been known to break down. They enjoy the luxury of a long franchise - if they had got five, six or seven years like most of the others, their whole business strategy would be different.

And it's wrong to say the route was at the bottom of the league and reviled when they took over. Before Chris Green's time at Network South East it may well have been, but NSE^▸ (Network South East) had spent lots of money on new Turbos, smartening up Marylebone, resignalling and ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection) - Chiltern were dealt a pretty good hand to build on, which they have done, along with a core section of route they have pretty much to themselves, with only W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) and the odd freight amid the flow of blue and white DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) - a rather different scenario from the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line).

I don't believe Chiltern had anything to do with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) getting their act together. FGW was in a big hole across the entire system when Andrew Haines took the reins. He brought in Mark Hopwood with the specific brief of sorting out the performance and it's clear he is keeping up the pressure on that front now he is the md. As for Virgin, they were stuck with West Coast rebuilding, so were on a hiding to nothing in terms of performance while Network Rail sorted out the mess Railtrack left behind.

Rolling stock-wise, it is to be hoped that someone within FGW resists the temptation to fit out those new Thames Valley DMUs in suburban style and instead equips them specifically for Cotswold and Oxford off-peak and contra-peak work, with 2+2 seats a la Clubman, so the Turbos can be concentrated on Oxford stoppers and Thames Valley suburban work. The 2+2 bits of 166s are perfectly acceptable - and would be even better with wide seats instead of the standard shells that were used - it's just that the whole train should be like that.

Industry Insider, I trust you have reported that overheard conversation to the higher-ups - not the sort of thing that tends to get factored in when basing decisions on the 'average' number of passengers using a train. It was full and standing again from Charlbury on Wednesday morning - it wasn't even half-term this time.

they want competiton between TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)

No they don't. They just want the maximum amount of premium payments coming in from the franchisees and a cut in the amount of money the Treasury pays out for the railways.

[stebbo]

"But as industry insider says it takes a long time to win back a lost reputation and also the Cotswold line will be subject extensive engineering works over the summer. The proof of the pudding will be how the punctuality improves once teh redoubling is complete and becomes fully operational. Although as he says there is still the problem of the overstretched train fleet."

Precisely - which is why, as I've said elsewhere, I try to avoid the Cotswold line even though I live in Hereford

[willc]

"But as industry insider says it takes a long time to win back a lost reputation and also the Cotswold line will be subject extensive engineering works over the summer. The proof of the pudding will be how the punctuality improves once teh redoubling is complete and becomes fully operational. Although as he says there is still the problem of the overstretched train fleet."

Precisely - which is why, as I've said elsewhere, I try to avoid the Cotswold line even though I live in Hereford

Even though punctuality has already improved out of all recognition since the horrors of January last year? What will it take - five years of flawless performance post-redoubling before you believe FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Network Rail can actually deliver?