Fare evasion [original topic]

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Update on the Dione, (for anyone really interested) .  To be used on-line, they need a SIM, which sits inside the battery compartment like a GSM phone.  As ours don't have the SIM, it means that they don't dial out, (just as STM explained above), and thus operate in polling mode only.  I believe, though am not certain, that the bank info is held on the PDA and not the Dione itself.  These 2 chat via Bluetooth during transactions.  As this is a highly arcane area, it is possible that my info is not 100% accurate, but this is really a side theme to the main event of fare evasion.  Thanks tho to STM for putting me on the right track re credit card authorisations.

Thats quite interesting G.Uard Would be useless on a Voyager though, you'd be forever issuing tickets in the "Rubber" part of the train where I have recently been informed is the best place for a mobile signal (Tried and tested, it works )

In theory if they connect via BlueTooth, you could put BlueTooth Access Points throughout the train and have a secure VPN link on a WWAN connection. This could then offer passengers WiFi on trains. Providing someone who is "Smart" sets it up, it could be made very secure indeed

Sorry for going off topic, but technology in the workplace interests me. I'm an IT/Network Engineer so I do get quite interested in it all

[vacman]

You are quite correct about forged seasons etc, but general fare evasion is dealt with by the team at Reading, I think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and FTPE^» (First TransPennine Express - website) are the only TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that have any great number of PACE^» (Police & Criminal Evidence Act - about) (Police And Criminal Evidence act 1984) trained inspectors that can caution and interview fare evadors, by FGW having these and the prosecutions unit saves the tax payer money!

[G.Uard]

(Police & Criminal Evidence Act - about)-training" target="_blank">http://www.atoc-comms.org/dynamic/toc-press-story/999900/Silverlink-Ticket-Inspectors-pass-PACE-training

[G.Uard]

Apologies for '2 in a row', but I think this is relevant.

Last week, RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) teams did a block at Filton Abbey Wood during the morning peak.  In around 2 hours, they checked 600 plus travellers and found over 260 ticket irregularities. 

Without an agile ATE (Assistant Ticket Examiner) to help, it is quasi impossible for a conductor get through the jam packed commuter trains from GCR^» (Gloucester - next trains) to BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) after leaving Yate.  Similarly, on the way up from BRI, the extreme proximity of Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road, make ticket checking very difficult indeed, as the guard is needed at the DKS^▸ (Door Key Switch) panel.

Yes we need more RPIs, booking office staff and working TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), but we also need a cultural change with regard to fare evasion by the general public.  Many of those 'caught' at Filton were students, but by no means all.

On my recent visit to Mumbai, I was told of a railway court which sits in the station building at Churchgate I believe.  Swift and summary justice for fare dodgers on an almost industrial basis.

[grahame]

Last week, RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) teams did a block at Filton Abbey Wood during the morning peak.  In around 2 hours, they checked 600 plus travellers and found over 260 ticket irregularities. 

That's a very interesting statistic - are you able to tell us any more.  In particular:

a) Where the 600 selected completely at random, was it everyone leaving the station, or was it targeted based on a formal or informal profile of "type of person" - perhaps "type likely to be irregular"

b) Of the 260 irregularities, how many were 'intent to defraud', and how many were other links like people not understanding all the rules, or tickets that had been damaged to were technically irregular even though they had been paid for?

[Tim]

but we also need a cultural change with regard to fare evasion by the general public.  Many of those 'caught' at Filton were students, but by no means all.

We will only get this if the chances of getting caught increase, which requires more TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) etc. 

It will also be neccessary to avoid a backlash from the reasonably honest majority.  This means clear and reasonable rules (ie a standard meaning of "off peak" - why not print it on the ticket?, standardarised rules on break of journeys etc), reasonable and much less complex fares and good ticket purchasing opertunities.  Staff descretion cuts both ways - it is the reasonable response to genuine customers struggling with a  system that they barely understand but it does undermine the cultural change that we want to see.  You would need much less decretion if it was easier for the fairly honest majority to play by the rules.

A couple of months ago I was travellling from Bath to Oxford on a Off Peak day return (as I think it was called).  Ticket was checked on the Didcot- Oxford Turbo at about 1 pm.  I asked the Guard checking my ticket if there if my ticket was valid for a retune during rush hour or if there were times I should avoid.  After several minutes of playing with his Advantix machine the reply came - "I don't know, you should ask at the station".  At the station, I was in a hurry so jumped in a cab without checking.  Coming back in the peak, the automatic gate accepted my ticket so I assumed it was valid and boarded the train.  Ticket was checked on board and presumably found to be valid.  Now if it hadn't been, I would have been liable to a penalty/fine or prosecution.  If that had happened I would have been entitled to feel a bit annoyed with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for employing staff who were unable to help me keep out of trouble.  Sure the offense would have been my fault, but FGW would have lost my goodwill.  (in actual fact it is my understanding now that my ticket was valid and that there is no evening restriction on off peak day returns with FGW although other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have them - how stupidly complicated is that?! - if the Guard had told me that my ticket had no evening restrictions I might have made the reasonable assumption that this applied to all tickets of that type and got cuaght out on the next FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) train I caught)

Some fare dodgers are threatening yobs who should be dealt with harshly and wil not buy a ticket until they are, but there are also plentry of what I would call fairly honest ordinary people (and most people, myself included are fairly honest - will not cheat as a matter of course but might be pursuaded to do so occasionally if the incentives and disincentives make sense).  Fairly honest people will usually try their best to get a valid ticket, but sometimes will get caught out with complicated rules and restrictions.  Those people deserve some descretion because the rules and restrictions are not their fault (and not always reasonable).  If you simplified the rules and restrictions and made them uniform then you would need less dercetion and the "always have a valid tciket" message would be delivered to the public much more clearly and you might get your cultural shift.

[inspector_blakey]

Although a penalty fare can certainly be issued for travelling using a discounted ticket on a restricted train, I would be surprised if a prosecution was brought. To my mind it would be very difficult to prove intent to avoid payment given how arcane many ticket restrictions are. However, I suspect the situation would be different if you were told by rail staff that your ticket was not available on a particular train because you would then be knowingly pulling a fast one.

For future reference, I checked the fares manual and  BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) - OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) off-peak day return has restriction L8 (no, really!), valid out by any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0915 and return by any train, so no problems with your journey.

[G.Uard]

Can't tell you too much more I'm afraid.  The RP Standards Manager who told me of this did mention that it was everyone that they checked, presumably when lack of ticket or a proffered ticket with some point of interest was encountered.  I will ask, but I can tell you that conductors at GCR^» (Gloucester - next trains) sometimes carry out blocks under guidance from RP.  Our figures, though not as alarming still give cause for concern.  It is not unknown for two operators to take over ^400 in unpaid fares in around 90 mins of peak period work.  Several would be dodgers are also intercepted on their way in to the station and diverted to the ticket office. We do have the added bonus of seeing wannabe scrotes hopping over the fence behind Platform 2 as consolation though. 

[Tim]

For future reference, I checked the fares manual and  BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) - OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) off-peak day return has restriction L8 (no, really!), valid out by any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0915 and return by any train, so no problems with your journey.

Thanks for checking.  I'm right in thinking that some off-peak returns do have evening restrictions though aren't I?  Seems stupid to have gone through a process of "fare simplifcation" which started using the terms "peak" and "off-peak" but then having different definitions of what these mean depndinging on the jounrey taken TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) involved type of ticket (ie off peak returns teh old savers do have evening restrictions) .  I know the different resptictions were there with "savers" and "Cheap" tickets, but at least the old ticket names didn't give the false impression of clarity.

[Tim]

Although a penalty fare can certainly be issued for travelling using a discounted ticket on a restricted train, I would be surprised if a prosecution was brought. To my mind it would be very difficult to prove intent to avoid payment given how arcane many ticket restrictions are.

If the restrictions were less arcane intent to aviod restrictions that were straightforward and printed on the front of the ticket would be easy to prove, prosecution would be easier, fraudulent travel would fall and the "culture" would change.

[vacman]

When a block is carried out EVERYONE is checked (apart from the ones who jump fences etc), the "irregularities" were more than likeley no ticket, i.e. you've left the station without having paid your far, also people buying railcard tickets who don't have railcards.
One person who was caught at Glastonbury last year who had bought a railcard ticket but had no railcard (or no intention of having one) was fined ^525.00, ^130.00 costs and had to pay ^89.59 comp to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), thats an incentive not to do it!

[thetrout]

From my point of view. The ticket restrictions are very confusing. I got caught out on the Tyne & Wear metro 18 months ago. I had a ticket which I had paid for before boarding, problem is it wasn't valid.

I walked up to a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and punched in a ticket to Newcastle. It told me the fare so I selected a day single and paid. I boarded the Metro at 08:58 (memory quite vague so take my timings with a pinch of salt ) an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) was onboard who saw me get on, and proceeded to check tickets. I had my ticket ready for inspection and was horrified and started to panic when I was told it wasn't valid. Apparently the reason was that off peak tickets weren't valid until 09:00 I immediately offered to pay the difference but the RPI insisted that it wouldn't be worth his bother for such a small difference. Politely said "Make sure you buy ticket X instead of Y when travelling before 09:00

This is all very well and good, I believe I had a lucky escape. But I had absolutely no idea that my ticket wasn't valid. Granted I should have checked out the tickets before travelling, except I had no Wireless Internet Access in the hotel room.

But I can see several things with that:

1) Had I have walked up to the next stop (about 1/2 mile away) I would have been able to use an Off Peak ticket without any issue.
2) Do you think it was justified to argue with a passenger over the difference of 2 minutes and about 50p?
3) Why didn't the ticket machine tell me I couldn't use the ticket on the 08:58, but sold the ticket to me at 08:45

Whilst I admit, hands down, that I was in the wrong. I think that alot of people get caught out simply because of lack of signage, TVM's instead of Humans etc. Equally had I have boarded a bus at 08:58 I would have highly likely been accepted using my Bus Pass which technically speaking, isn't valid until 09:00

Obviously i'm not justifying for every situation. I do think as Tim says, Honest Travellers get caught out simply because they don't know any different. I do remember inspector_blakey raising a similar concept in another thread with regards to the amount of tickets available between Bristol and Oxford (e.g. AP READING or NOT LONDON)

[Btline]

Restrictions need to be sorted out. TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) need to meet and decide what "peak" means.

Central Trains had a policy of "Naming and shaming" where they would put up posters with the names and addresses of people who had been RPOed along with the total amount paid (often over ^1000).

[devon_metro]

When a block is carried out EVERYONE is checked (apart from the ones who jump fences etc), the "irregularities" were more than likeley no ticket, i.e. you've left the station without having paid your far, also people buying railcard tickets who don't have railcards.
One person who was caught at Glastonbury last year who had bought a railcard ticket but had no railcard (or no intention of having one) was fined ^525.00, ^130.00 costs and had to pay ^89.59 comp to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), thats an incentive not to do it!

Didn't some character decide to jump the fence (into a bush) at Castle Cary 

[vacman]

When a block is carried out EVERYONE is checked (apart from the ones who jump fences etc), the "irregularities" were more than likeley no ticket, i.e. you've left the station without having paid your far, also people buying railcard tickets who don't have railcards.
One person who was caught at Glastonbury last year who had bought a railcard ticket but had no railcard (or no intention of having one) was fined ^525.00, ^130.00 costs and had to pay ^89.59 comp to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), thats an incentive not to do it!

Didn't some character decide to jump the fence (into a bush) at Castle Cary 

Yes, he hehe, and he was subsequently done for no ticket AND the byelaw of exiting a station via an unautharised exit, AND was cut to ribbons by the brambles!