Fare evasion [original topic]

[whole diary]

[G.Uard]

 vacman

I hear what you are saying and agree to a point.  I don't claim to have superhuman powers, but it is often possible to sort the scrote from the genuine passenger. Surely better to use discretion and thus avoid hacking off the vast majority of law abiding pax.  It is a minefield and applying the law to the letter also risks the passenger refusing to pay for a single point blank.  A colleague had this the other day.  BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) became involved and quietly suggested that the passenger be issued with a return to save bother.

I don't begin to claim to have all the answers, but until the Penalty Fare license issue is sorted,  I feel that some discretion is warranted.  Perhaps this problem should be put to senior management and a comprehensive, well publicized and easy to follow cast iron ruling be given to settle the question once and for all.  I know what the Ts & Cs say, but in any court of law, the first principal the judge will examine will be that of reasonableness.

I should add that I always point out that strictly speaking, etc etc etc you should have purchased beforehand.


Edited for typos

[Tim]

, you may sell them a cheap ticket one day so they think it's ok to do it all the time,

A risk, but not if the cheap ticket could comes with a warning that the TM^‡(resolve) is bending the rules and that you might not be able to get away with it in the future. 

[vacman]

I'm not saying don't use disgression but to offer them what they wan't nearly all of the time isn't disgression it's just looking for an easy life, one thing that hacks me off is when I charge someone up and they say "but I've travelled every day this week and they've sold me these"......  pulling out hundreds of Off-peak returns with railcard discounts from quite major stations such as Taunton and Truro! Disgression is for stations such as Camborne where one person has to dispatch trains, sell tickets and everything else and where theres no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), not for stations that have more than ample ticket issuing facilities where the responsibilty really must lie with the customer.
As for standing up in court, well there have been many a case that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have prosecuted where people who have flatley refused to pay an SOS - or buy a new ticket when no railcard held etc where FGW have won, in fact I don't ever recall seeing one that FGW lost, and like I say, it's very bad customer service to be inconcistent and give out mixed messages.
If someone does make the effort to come and find me on the train if they are late or whatever or they see me on the platform then I will sell them the cheaper ticket, but if they come up at the last second and just get on and sit down (usually at the opposite end to me!!) then they get the full whack!

[Tim]

If someone does make the effort to come and find me on the train if they are late or whatever or they see me on the platform then I will sell them the cheaper ticket, but if they come up at the last second and just get on and sit down (usually at the opposite end to me!!) then they get the full whack!

isn't that doing exactly what G.Uard does.  Using judgement and common sense to separate out who is genuine and who is a fraud?

[TerminalJunkie]

I'm not saying don't use disgression

http://www.english-for-students.com/Disgression-and-Discretion.html

[Mookiemoo]

I have NEVER been refused a ticket on a train - ever.  Bearing in mind I have a YP railcard and travel in first class, and I know what the advantix machines will do my experience is this:

1. London Midland - impose the rules - no YP discount on train (but I still get it there cos I'm normally running late) - Kiddie is I think a penalty fare station - never had one, never, nada

2. First Great WEstern - depend on the train manager and on the cotswolds line I know the one(s) not to try it with - generally the attitude is - if the machine issues it, ill issue it.

3. Virgin - like london midland but still never been penaltied or full faired if a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) was available

4. Arriva trains wales - dont know the rules - presumably as they dont have first class and dont bother learning.  Get nearly all my tickets on the ludlow/shrewsbury or ludlow/newport leg

Incidentally, even if I have a technically non valid YP discount on first class, bot one LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) or Virgin TM^‡(resolve) (lets not mention FGW^▸ (First Great Western) - saee above) has questioned it

I await the slating from the "rules are rules" people .......... it is not generally well known you cant get YP discount in first so if I were not here and I'd asked the question of a TM and sold one, id assume it ok.

[Chris from Nailsea]

"Tin hats on, everyone!"

(any chance of another topical smiley, TerminalJunkie?) 

[Mookiemoo]

"Tin hats on, everyone!"

(any chance of another topical smiley, TerminalJunkie?) 

In my defence - I have NEVER tried to avoid paying - I have paid for every journey I take even if I have to go find a TM^‡(resolve) to get a ticket!

I have however been penaltied because it took me so long to find a parking space I had 30 seconds to get a ticket so didnt, could not find the TM on the train - I even checked my half of the train, got out and went looking in the other half - but the barrier staff still penaltied me.  This was SWT^▸ (South West Trains) from I think if I remember, Egham to Putney.

I have however been in the position of the girl who lost her return leg - and I came across the same discretion - in my case because I went to FIND the TM and explain.  FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in this case.

[thetrout]

I await the slating from the "rules are rules" people .......... it is not generally well known you cant get YP discount in first so if I were not here and I'd asked the question of a TM^‡(resolve) and sold one, id assume it ok.

I've seen YP discount on First CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) before. The dude at Trowbridge Ticket Office assumed I had YP railcard and not DSB. But my Understanding was that YP isn't accepted as a discount in First Class. Please correct me if i'm wrong

I'm the same as Mookiemoo and have never tried to avoid paying. I don't agree with Fare Dodging.

As I said in an earlier post. If I don't have a ticket for whatever reason, I will find the TM to get one.

As G.Uard has said, you can weed out the fare dodgers from the genuine passengers.

I remember travelling on an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service from Trowbridge, I didn't have a ticket because some old women couldn't decide whether to book train X or Y. Equally you could argue that I should have arrived at the station in good time, Well I did, 15 minutes before the train was due to leave. Beings as both TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) had been removed, I had no option but to get on the train ticketless I went to find the TM straight away, who issued me with a CDR with no trouble or questions. I later went up the train to obtain a cup of tea. Passed the very same TM giving a roasting to an obvious fare dodger.

I can also see vacman's point of view in people should have tickets from major stations. e.g. Bristol, Bath Spa and Taunton. Which is in theory is spot on, as their is multiple Ticket Issuing facillities. But equally if you need to extend your journey plans at short notice, the train your currently on is running late and you have a connection to make. It's not always possible.

I'm going to stop there before I unleash the hounds

[Zoe]

Can they refuse to sell a return on the train even if it is the most expensive return available?  I have heard of some guards only issuing the most expensive single and refusing to sell a return on train.

[Mookiemoo]

I await the slating from the "rules are rules" people .......... it is not generally well known you cant get YP discount in first so if I were not here and I'd asked the question of a TM^‡(resolve) and sold one, id assume it ok.

I've seen YP discount on First CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) before. The dude at Trowbridge Ticket Office assumed I had YP railcard and not DSB. But my Understanding was that YP isn't accepted as a discount in First Class. Please correct me if i'm wrong

Its not officially allowed and im surprised that the Trowbridge office could issue one - in general, ticket office and TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) machines have the proper software and wont give YP discount on FC^‡(resolve) BUT the advantix machines the TM's use are not very bright and can if the TM asks them to.  In which case its up to TM discretion.

[G.Uard]

It is a minefield and attempting to offer the best possible customer service, whilst striving to maintain and protect company revenue streams is certainly not a recipe for an easy life.  I get enough hassle from results of those (thankfully few), 'ticket monsters' who will carpet bomb each carriage and sell the most tickets in the quickest time possible, regardless of status or entitlement

I haven't been on the railway very long and for me, each day is a learning experience.  I  have been in customer service most of my life though, (somewhere, I have a rusty degree in the laws surrounding such shenanigans).  I spent years in the travel industry, very much at the sharp end in the 'popular' Med resorts, but that doesn't mean that I am trying to rewrite the book.  Accordingly, this very afternoon I asked a Competence Manager what to do in such situations.  The reply was, "It's up to you".

Naturally, I will give most credence to the passenger who actively searches me out, or who has boarded at a station with a history of TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) problems, but trying to deal fairly and impartially with every situation is very possibly more difficult than adopting the inflexible approach.  It is not just a question of giving everyone what they want, but making a genuine judgement call each time and then sticking to your guns. We were taught Safety, Punctuality, Customer Service/PR^▸ (Public Relations), Revenue, in that order.  Whilst I would never take issue with vacman's years of experience, it seems to me that I am doing my best to follow the company mantra although I am open to argument from those in the know.

Edited for typos...again.  Well I have just finished a 10 hr shift.

[TerminalJunkie]

"Tin hats on, everyone!"

(any chance of another topical smiley, TerminalJunkie?) 

[Chris from Nailsea]

A couple of points from me, if I may?

Firstly, I do have every sympathy with customer-facing staff, trying to deal appropriately with passengers who, whether through pure unfamiliarity or blatant intent, haven't bought a ticket when they could have done.

Secondly, I also have nothing but praise for the many FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff I have met on board my local trains, who have always been friendly and helpful when asked to sell me a ticket.

For example, last weekend, I took my family to Bath for a birthday celebration: I had checked the website to ascertain the fare beforehand but, not trusting my ability to purchase that combination from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Nailsea, I suggested we bought the tickets on board.  The friendly conductor pointed out that a group save was in fact cheaper, and sold us that - it was complete news to me, as I'm used to buying just my own commuter tickets.  What impressed us all was that the conductor had shown true 'customer service' in her actions - she could have just sold us the more expensive tickets I'd actually asked for, and I'd have been none the wiser (but rather poorer).

Well done FGW staff, I say!  

[G.Uard]

It has also just occurred to me that 99% of the fare evasion cases which reach court are run past the CPS by the Prosecutions Department/BTP^▸ (British Transport Police).  As the CPS prefer 'nailed on' cases, it is hardly surprising that the conviction rate for such offences is so high.  I would be interested to know how many potential prosecutions fall by the wayside though and IMO^▸ (in my opinion), it is a pretty safe bet that a goodly part of these are slain by the doctrine of reasonableness.

Just look at the fiasco surrounding the attempted use of Electron/Solo Cards for ticket purchase on trains. 

(They cannot be processed by Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) at present although they are acceptable in some TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and at booking offices). Unfortunately, it is clear that Scrotes in the know proffer these on a daily basis. However, it is difficult to prosecute and almost impossible to prove intent as it would be unreasonable to expect passengers to research enough to find the limitations on Electron, (and Solo) cards.

I am not suggesting everyone who tries to use these cards for on-board purchase is trying it on.  There is genuine and understandable confusion.  However, the Scrote brigade have caught on very quickly and are getting away with it.  At least we can take the number of the card towards ID verification when issuing the appropriate notice, although with data protection laws, (as in line with company policy, no crime is being committed), I am not sure that this is all that helpful.

Edited to include Solo Cards