Fare evasion [original topic]

[whole diary]

[chrisoates]

Was at Newton Abbot near the vendor on platform 2, lots of kids using it - one said "if you spend all your money you won't be able to get a train ticket"...responce was..."I don't give a shxt they can't chuck me off the train".

Coming up to Devon this morning no ticket checks were done despite it being a saturday, train full of shoppers and kids out for the day and no barriered stations in Cornwall.
I was intending to go to Exmouth and could have got there for and EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains)-EXM fare.
The return journey was equally as busy but the TM^‡(resolve) managed to grip 8 carriages between every station including Camborne to St Erth where I didn't see anyone board.
 

Edit - to change subject line of thread - Graham

[G.Uard]

This happened to me, (youths who had no cash/ticket, but were sporting brand new trainers and were highly abusive to boot),  twixt Brizzle n Bath the other day.  At Bath, I spotted 2 stalwarts of the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) on the platform.  After a quick word, they marched the 'offenders' off the train to verify identity and gain personal details so that parents of the little darlings could be made responsible for the cost of the journey.  Salutary lesson for their many peers on train, all of whom coughed up without hesitation.

BTP don't necessarily like to get involved in such events.  (Check out this forum http://www.policespecials.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t84842.html), but they did a great job in highly visible policing on that occasion.

[thetrout]

I travelled on an NXEA^▸ (National Express East Anglia) service to Stansted Airport. I was sitting in First Class with a few other passengers, Some of them saw the Ticket Inspector walking down the train checking tickets. So they got up and moved to the vestibules. After the Ticket Inspector checked First Class and the passengers who had moved to the vestibules, he went on to check the rest of the train. Once he was safely out of view, all those passengers who were in the vestibule, came and sat back down in First Class!

In all honesty I always make sure I have a ticket for travel. If I don't have one I find the TM^‡(resolve) to purchase a ticket, 99% of which are more than happy to sell me a ticket. The remaining 1% ask very suttley if i'm travelling to a gated station and tell me to get a ticket when I get there.

[inspector_blakey]

Interesting comments in the light of a journey I made yesterday with some friends, one of whom is current and another recently retired FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff. We travelled from St Pancras to Loughborough return and they commented on how efficient the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) conductors were with revenue protection (both carried out a full ticket check after each calling point) compared to their FGW colleagues, citing poor staff motivation at FGW.

Now, I know this isn't the whole story because a number of FGW's train managers and conductors are very, very good both at making themselves visible and accessible to the punters during the journey and also revenue protection. However it does strike me that ticket checks, particularly on high speed services, are becoming less frequent: I would say (and of course this is only anecdotal evidence, possibly skewed by the fact that I usually travel at the weekend) that my ticket is only checked on-board between Oxford and Bristol on a minority of journeys.

I've travelled often enough to recognize many of the HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) guards and can now predict reasonably accurately whether my ticket will be checked as soon as I see the conductor or train manager in charge: whilst many are enthusiastic and efficient a large number just never check. Presumably this is noted by higher authority as those staff will repeatedly not pay in any money from Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) transactions. But the situation doesn't seem to change.

I can see two obvious arguments these staff might make for not checking tickets (apart from the issue of antisocial behaviour on late-night trains, where I absolutely sympathize): barriers and safety-critical duties. I don't think the barriers argument holds water as there are still many ungated stations or those where barriers are left open in the evenings. Although my tickets are checked at the barriers both in Oxford and Bristol this does not preclude the possibility of "dumbbelling" by buying two short-distance singles that would cover me for each end of the journey.

The safety-critical aspect of the guard is of course of paramount importance (and someone in my position ought to understand it much better than the vast majority of passengers) but last time I took a rules exam sitting in first class drinking tea or chatting with the customer host weren't defined as vital duties that a guard must carry out! If many guards can manage a full ticket check most of the time then why can't the significant minority who don't seem to be bothered?

[vacman]

It's basicly down to a lack of discipline, the lazy ones get away with it so they carry on being lazy, yes safety of the train comes first but revenue protection comes before sitting in coach F drinking tea, hopefully the rumours are true that now FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have many extra guards than before they may start actually chasing up people who sit on their arse all day, one manager recently told me that a shake up is on the way...... and you know what happens when I post rumours on here, they usually come true!! 

[thetrout]

Ticket checks are very relaxed on VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) Services. I travelled from Liverpool right down to London Euston in FC^‡(resolve) without any ticket check whatsoever.

I have noted that London Midland are quite hot on ticket checks and revenue protection, but they do it from my experience in a friendly and polite way. I travelled recently with them from Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street, The Train Manager came and saw I was busy doing some network design in Microsoft Visio, and happily left me too it and checked my ticket at a later time. Which I thought was very accomodating and understanding.

I have noticed however on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services they announce when they are going to do a ticket check, which gives ample time for fare dodgers to remove themselves from FC or take a lengthly toilet break

[inspector_blakey]

I've lost count of the number of journeys between Reading and Swansea I've made with no ticket check at all - that's nearly 3 hours. Bizarrely though I've almost always been checked travelling in the opposite direction!

[Tim]

It's basicly down to a lack of discipline, the lazy ones get away with it so they carry on being lazy, yes safety of the train comes first but revenue protection comes before sitting in coach F drinking tea, hopefully the rumours are true that now FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have many extra guards than before they may start actually chasing up people who sit on their arse all day, one manager recently told me that a shake up is on the way...... and you know what happens when I post rumours on here, they usually come true!! 

Since ticket barriers have been installed at Bath and London, HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) ticket checks have fallen off.  Once upon a time, you would be checked on every train (and in the days when you could buy a full -price ticket on the train, the TM^‡(resolve) sold a few tickets per coach and still covered the whole train).  Now - sometimes you get checked and someties not.  I know that collaration is not the same as causality, but one of the reasons I dislike ticket barriers is that they appear to have lead to less checking on the trains.

[TerminalJunkie]

I know that collaration is not the same as causality

That's because 'collaration' isn't a real word.

[jakemonkfish]

Whilst i agree there seesm to be less checking, I did have the pleasure to witness 2 policeman escorting a new trainer wearing stroppy 'yoof' of the train at bridgewater - I presume the train crew radioed ahead from highbridge where the little darling got on and started swearing whilst refusing to buy a ticket

[G.Uard]

Bridgwater is near the top of the Premier League of fare evasion hotspots.  Other strong contenders are Trowbridge and Gt Malvern/Malvern Link.  Although I don't get that far, I know that some of the Cornish stations also have major problems.

At times of light traffic, I know of guards who will only open the local door at these stops and thus check tickets before allowing potential scrotes to board.

It is a constant battle, I would say that I encounter some form of attempted fraud on around 80% of trains. 

[thetrout]

One thing I have noticed in First Class on HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) is that the customer host sometimes checks the tickets and removes offenders who don't have the appropriate ticket. Occasionally the TM^‡(resolve) will make it down FC^‡(resolve) and will normally want to see my ticket just at the punch line of the film I was watching on my laptop

I would agree with G.Uard on this one regarding Bridgwater and Trowbridge being top of the league for fare evasion. But the problem I have noted at Trowbridge is that the ticket machines got badly vandalised. I believe one has been reinstalled. But you get people arriving at Trowbridge Ticket Office wanting to book tickets for a weeks time, hence people travelling on the day aren't able to get a ticket. As I have said in other threads, people might not bother with the ticket machine option simply because they can't be ar*ed.

Whilst i'm not justifying boarding a train without a ticket, Sometimes people don't have an option because they can't actually get a ticket. But I think there is a certain level of discretion to be had, and Guards I find are normally able to judge who is the fare dodger and who isn't

[Phil]

Whilst i'm not justifying boarding a train without a ticket, Sometimes people don't have an option because they can't actually get a ticket. But I think there is a certain level of discretion to be had, and Guards I find are normally able to judge who is the fare dodger and who isn't

Thanks for remembering to mention that - I was about to dive in and defend the good people of Melksham who have no choice.

As I've mentioned before, all credit to the guards who trust me - and presumably several others like me - who inform them when they join the train at Melksham that they will be disembarking and collecting pre-booked tickets at Chippenham or Westbury before travelling on to London.

[G.Uard]

It's not usually that difficult to weed out the bilkers from the honest traveller.  If a passenger rushes to the extreme front of the train on boarding, spends 30 minutes locked in the loo, or attempts to buy a Child ticket for their own use with a credit card, (yep, it happens regularly), we have a pretty good idea that something is rotten in the kingdom of Wessex.  There is more to it than that though, body language, furtive glances, unease.  I guess that policemen have a more highly developed version of this instinct and it works...most of the time.

Yesterday I had a young lady who had lost the return half of her ticket. She was visibly distressed and hauled out the outward half, plus a week's worth of previous tickets, (both portions), to show me.  Strictly speaking, I should have issued a further ticket, but as it was odds on that she was genuine, I couldn't see the point of upsetting her further, particularly as it was highly likely that she had paid.  It's good to be able to use discretion, especially when it can also help score a PR^▸ (Public Relations) goal.

Unless I consider that a deliberate attempt to avoid payment is being made, I will always offer the full range of available tickets to passengers boarding from manned/machine equipped stations without them.

Just a word ref Trowbridge.  Whilst there is sometimes a lack of opportunity to purchase tickets beforehand, there seems to be a culture in this area which attempts to avoid payment at all cost. When I take fares for single stop journeys, I frequently get passengers who say, "you're not going to charge me for that are you?"  Worse still are the single stoppers who get on with no money or no intention of paying.  Almost impossible to counter without checking tickets at the local door.  This in turn delays the train and hacks off those who do want to pay or already have tickets, particularly if it is raining.

[vacman]

Unless I consider that a deliberate attempt to avoid payment is being made, I will always offer the full range of available tickets to passengers boarding from manned/machine equipped stations without them.

Which causes problems for those of us that do it by the book, and gives out a mixed, inconsistent message to customers, you may sell them a cheap ticket one day so they think it's ok to do it all the time, then the next day the same customer gets charged a full fare ticket from the same station then you haven't really done anything for good customer service, you've just put your colleague the next day in a position of confrontation. At the end of the day if the customer chooses to walk past a big yellow sign that in no uncertain terms tells you that you must have a ticket before boarding then thats up to them! Stations with JUST a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and no booking office are slightly different, the main problem with the above is that you can't sell an SDS to a scrote who didn't buy his ticket before boarding one side then go to the next person and sell them a CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) just because they look different, everyone has to be treated the same