Fare discrimination (Re: Oxford - Bristol during engineering work)

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Split from http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4234.0 - Graham

So long as all tickets are available to everyone on a non-discriminatory basis it can't be unfair.  

Of course, they're NOT ... but that spins us off onto a whole new other subject (and I'll split the thread  ).

I am a victim of discrimination.  I am not able to buy a "Club 55" ticket because I am a few months short of that birthday. I am not able to buy BritRail tickets because I live in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and pay taxes(!).  I am not able to get an "able bodied" railcard, even though there is an alternative "disabled" card.  There are young and old people's cards and concessions, but no "middle aged" cards ...

[Tim]

Age and disability are the two main forms of discrimination used on the railway for the purchasing of tickets.

I can't see how a disabled person's railcard can possibily be justified.  The argument in favour is that many disabled people can't drive so the train is more important for them than for the average person.  By that logic able-bodies people should get subsidised petrol not available to disabled people).  And of course the justification is undermined by giving the disabled free car parking with their blue badge (I am all in favour of providing reserved parking spaces- but they should be paid for like any other space) Of course lots of disable people are on lower than average incomes (although plenty are not) It seems unfair that they are charged full price for their tickets, but the problem here is that they are on lower than average incomes.  If society wants to sort this out it should subsidise their salaries or benefits directly and openly not indirectly be offering cheap rail travel.

On age discrimination, the same logic applies.  Why should old people get cheap trains or free buses?  If the justification is that it is because they are poor, then we should increase their pensions and let them decide what to spend the extra money on.

in my benign dictatorship, all these perks would be abolished (free TV licences etc) and action taken to ensure that everyone had enough money for a decent standard of living.  What they chose to spend that money on (trains, TVs, buses, gin, a car) would be entirely their own business.

Of course the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) will justify giving cheap fares to students, the old and disabled because those groups are less likely to be in regular employment and travelling at peak times.  But cheap off peak fares for everyone can and do will the off peak seats

[Zoe]

Why should old people get cheap trains or free buses?

Why should they not get them?  Is it not fair that for people that have worked and paid taxes for 40+ years to expect something back and return?

[grahame]

Why should old people get cheap trains or free buses?

Why should they not get them?  Is it not fair that for people that have worked and paid taxes for 40+ years to expect something back and return?

I think the argument was that they've had 40+ years of experience in managing their money, and it seems more than a little patronising to spend money that *should* be part of their pension for them on subsidised (or free to them) transport  or parking - let *them* decide how the money best benefits them from a proper pension / disability allowance.

One of the issues that you seem to get when you don't pay these groups directly, but rather buy services for them which you then dole out totally free at the point of use, is that the natural market of supply and demand goes out of the window - gets distorted.  That's been seen (I think) with the National Heath service, and certainly with bus travel, and you can end up with huge bills for the taxpayer for services which many of the recipients wouldn't buy even if they had to pay just a quarter of the price the rest of us pay. This shows how little use it really is to them, and how money is being spent somewhat untargetted.

I would much rather that Alastair and Gordon trusted their mothers and fathers rather than going for their 'control' approach of 'government knows best'.  All VERY theoritic of course ...

[smokey]

If there is a Railcard MISSING it should be the Young Homeowner with a Mortgage!

But yes there should be a National Railcard for anyone not covered by Existing cards.

And if Grahame wants to mention discrimination what about the Devon & Cornwall Railcard!

On the subject of Free TV licence for the Over 75's, it seems wrong that If Granny lives with you the full family in the house gets FREE TV.

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) as long as Full Council Tax is Paid and you have a relative over 75 just claim He/She lives with you!
You can be registered as living in MORE than one place.

[thetrout]

I have a Disabled railcard and personally I see it as a privillage and not a right. I had no idea I was entitled to one until I was refused a Driving License by the DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency).

I think the idea behind the railcard is that some people because of their disabilities have to take an able bodied person with them to help them with their travelling. E.g. assisting them onto the train, accessing catering etc.

So here's a question. Why should somebody who is disabled pay for 2 tickets without discount simply because they cannot travel alone??

If your disabled to that extend (and lets remind ourselves that you don't have to be in a wheelchair to be disabled) then it's hardly your fault you need assistance is it..?

also, do you think that a disabled person really wants to stand out or stigmatise themselves by being entitled to the discount??

The discrimination though that really annoys me is when a wheelchair occupant isn't asked for their disabled railcard, whereas I am asked for it. Surely that's like saying "You don't look disabled, are you trying to cheat the system here??"

I hope I didn't sound to critical or mean posting that. I just have a problem with the way people make out that being disabled is all full of perks and things, because really, it isn't...!

Also if I have picked up the wrong end of the stick here then I do apologise

[Zoe]

Cross posted from Devon & Cornwall Bus Forum http://www.dcbus.co.uk but I think relevant to this discussion:

South Hams council policy development group have backed a plan to extend the concessionary travel scheme to 14 - 19 year olds in full time education.  The scheme would first need to be backed at a council executive meeting next month and then the government.  I'm not convinced this is a good idea and think there is less of a case for this than for over 60s as at least in London the free travel is taken advantage of by people jumping on a bus and going one stop just as they don't want to walk it.

[devon_metro]

Outrageous. I really should move a few miles to South Hams then shouldn't I!

[Zoe]

Outrageous. I really should move a few miles to South Hams then shouldn't I!

Not sure how it will work if the unitary Devon plan goes ahead though.

[super tm]

Cross posted from Devon & Cornwall Bus Forum http://www.dcbus.co.uk but I think relevant to this discussion:

South Hams council are proposing to give free bus travel to 14 - 19 year olds in full time eduction.  I they have less of a case for free travel then over 60s as at least in London it has been taken advantage of with people getting the bus to go a single stop when it would be an easily walkable journey.

Sorry that does not make sense. What does I they have less of a case of mean.

[TerminalJunkie]

Sorry that does not make sense.

OK...

What does I they have less of a case of mean.

...but that does? 

[Zoe]

I apologize, I tried to reword my original bus forum post a bit and messed it up, I should have just copied it word for word and have now edited the above post.  I'm not convinced giving 14 - 19 year olds in full time education free bus travel is a good idea as it will encourage bus use for walkable journeys.

[Ollie]

The discrimination though that really annoys me is when a wheelchair occupant isn't asked for their disabled railcard, whereas I am asked for it. Surely that's like saying "You don't look disabled, are you trying to cheat the system here??"

A person in a wheelchair doesn't  have to have a railcard to get a discount. But the discount without railcard isn't always as good as with the railcard.

[willc]

RE^▸ (Religious Education) 14 to 19-year-olds, while they usually only get a discount/half-fare card, in most Passenger Transport Authority areas it has long been the case that those over 16 in full-time education (at schools and further education colleges) have been allowed concessionary travel, though I think free travel may be taking it a bit far. In the mid-1970s, West Yorkshire PTE^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive)'s bus services had a flat 4p fare for schoolchildren for a few years but even back then it was decided the subsidy bill was too much.

And don't forget all us able-bodied non-children and non-pensioners along the Cotswold Line, who get our very own discounts, nor, of course, the Network Railcard, available to all and sundry in the area it covers, and which offers very attractive discounts for group travel as well, not just the named cardholder.

[Tim]

Why should old people get cheap trains or free buses?

Why should they not get them?  Is it not fair that for people that have worked and paid taxes for 40+ years to expect something back and return?

the tax they paid out was spend long ago (on themselves mostly).  It is the middled aged who are paying the bulk of the tax now.