Is this good news

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

There is a chance that because these trains are being built by Hitachi they might not be too bad. The other group bidding to win the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) contract included Bombardier which gave the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network...yes you've guessed it Voyagers!

[dog box]

but Timmer built to what old beardie wanted.........with all due respect the 170 is not a bad bit of kit and Bombardier built that

[Electric train]

The other thing that may have steered DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) choice is the work load of manufactures, there is a big orders planned and or ongoing for Thameslink, London Overground, London Underground and other ex BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) suburban and rural fleet renewals and enhancements

[Zoe]

UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network

Why do people insist on using this term?  The UK has two quite separate rail networks:  The National Rail network of Great Britain and the Northern Ireland network.

[Electric train]

UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network

Why do people insist on using this term?  The UK has two quite separate rail networks:  The National Rail network of Great Britain and the Northern Ireland network.

There are actually more than that London Underground, the Glasgow "clockwork oranage" Tyne and Weir metro ......

[Chris from Nailsea]

It's a bit of a concern that the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route is only an optional extra and not part of the main order as this leaves the possibility that we could end up with Voyager style underfloor engine DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) on that route.

Indeed, Zo^: from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page),

A Cornwall MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) is calling on the government to re-think plans for a fleet of new trains for the Great Western and East Coast main lines.  The Department for Transport has given the go-ahead for the ^7bn funding to replace trains 20-30 years old. 
However, Matthew Taylor, Truro and St Austell MP, says south west England will not benefit enough as the trains will only come as far as Bristol.  He has branded the lack of inclusion "calamitous" and wants a re-think.

TravelWatch SouthWest, the public transport passenger watchdog for the region, plans to campaign for more "super express" trains to be built to replace existing high speed trains on other key corridors in the south west of England.  The organisation will focus particularly on routes serving Cheltenham Spa, Exeter, Gloucester, Penzance, Plymouth and Taunton.

Chris Irwin, chair of TravelWatch SouthWest, said: "TravelWatch SouthWest will continue to campaign vigorously for the build of additional new super express trains for deployment on other key routes in the region.  We will also campaign for the early electrification of the Great Western Main Line and for additional diesel rolling stock to alleviate the terrible overcrowding happening every day on regional and local trains in the South West''.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7887086.stm

[paul7575]

Is there any serious reason though why none of these could be produced for XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))? Im sure a few could be used to supplement the fleet? 

IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) for XC is definitely in the ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender), as one of the future phases. The recent announcement only seems to cover phase 1, ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) AFAICT^▸ (as far as I can tell). I guess they'll hang fire on XC until they know what can be cascaded (eg Meridians) depending on if there is any electrification?  ECML HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) > EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about)/MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) , Meridian > XC, then later IEPs to EMT/MML is another option...

Paul

[r james]

Yeah, I personally would rather see all of the meridians being transferred to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), as I have said many times before, it would create a more uniform fleet os train interiors and standards etc.

The longer Meridians would be perfect for XC. 

[broadgage]

It is begining to look as though this may not be such good news for passengers

According to Rail* the new trains will be in formations of 5 or 10 vehicles, so thats mainly 5 vehicle formations then ! With a few 10s.

No mention is made is made of different designs of power car for different train lengths, so presumably either the 5 car ones will be very overpowered or the 10 car ones  underpowered.
It does not look as though the 5 car ones will use only a single power car, since no mention is made of driving trailers.

It would also appear that they count the power cars in the number of vehicles which is a bit misleading since the diesel power cars will have no seating, and the electric ones only limited seating.
Thats like calling the present HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) 10 car trains.

Seating layout will presumably be high density bus seats, like all new trains

The inclusion of a small diesel generator in the electric trains certainly sounds like a good idea, able to run the A/C or proceed at much reduced speed when the wires come down, as they will !

And at least the diesel version will have two power cars for "get you home redundancy" like the HSTs.

* issue 612, page 6

[paul7575]

According to Rail* the new trains will be in formations of 5 or 10 vehicles, so thats mainly 5 vehicle formations then ! With a few 10s.
No mention is made is made of different designs of power car for different train lengths, so presumably either the 5 car ones will be very overpowered or the 10 car ones  underpowered.
It does not look as though the 5 car ones will use only a single power car, since no mention is made of driving trailers.
...and the electric ones only limited seating.
Seating layout will presumably be high density bus seats, like all new trains

The actual numbers of 10 and 5 car units is given precisely (in terms of daily diagrams required) in the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender). It certainly isn't mostly 5s with a few 10s.
The 10 car diesel has 2 power cars. There is no 5 car diesel only variant. The 5 car bi-mode has a single diesel power car as shown in Hitachi's brief.  The electric driving car of the bi-mode (it is not a driving trailer) has about 60 odd seats using Hitachi's seating capacity figures.
Seating layout is covered in detail in the Train Technical Specification, on DfT's site, which is a bit too detailed to summarise, however the ratios of airline to table seating are all in there for the three types of train, intercity, interurban, and commuter. As an example, the intercity standard class has 50/50 airline and table. Achieved total seat numbers and seating pitches are in the Hitachi spec.

DfT ITT: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/iepinvitationtotender.pdf
DfT Train Technical Specification: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/ieptraintechnicalspecifi.pdf
Hitachi info sheet: http://www.agilitytrains.com/assets/pdf/AT-090205-Key_Facts-Released-1_5.pdf

Hope this helps you find some of the facts...

Paul

[broadgage]

Thanks for the above links, which I have only viewed briefly as yet.

Whilst I find your information somwhat re-assuring, I have seen so many new trains introduced that have been shorter, with reduced legroom and primarily bus seats that I have become somwhat cynical.

I note with concern the statement that the interior layout can be altered to meet the needs of TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), I cant imagine that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would make any positive changes !
After all, complaints about lack of seats are allways understood to mean that customers want high density bus seating.
And of course there is still time de-spec or simplify the trains "lets only build the interurban variant" for example.

Whilst we may hope that the new trains will have a proper restaurant, it does not look very likely, probably wont even have a buffet if other new trains are anything to go by!.

[Not from Brighton]

The Hitachi info sheet certainly seems to suggest that the self powered variety will indeed have only eight passenger coaches.  I cant see how any more could be added at a later date without magically getting more power from somewhere.

[G.Uard]

If the wires ever do get to red soil country, I can't see them penetrating west of Exeter.  I am told that current loadings west of Newbury on the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) are not exactly encouraging, other than at peaks and given the apparent intent to confine electrification to the M4 corridor, a long term diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) option is perhaps the best the south-west can hope for, at least before 2020.

[devon_metro]

If the wires ever do get to red soil country, I can't see them penetrating west of Exeter.  I am told that current loadings west of Newbury on the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) are not exactly encouraging, other than at peaks and given the apparent intent to confine electrification to the M4 corridor, a long term diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) option is perhaps the best the south-west can hope for, at least before 2020.

Funny that, don't think I have EVER been on a lightly loaded train towards London (and this is at Newton Abbot)

[Tim]

The Hitachi info sheet certainly seems to suggest that the self powered variety will indeed have only eight passenger coaches.  I cant see how any more could be added at a later date without magically getting more power from somewhere.

Oh dear, Why are new trains always too short.  The basic economic principle behind trains which has been true for 175 years is that longer trains cost less to operate per passenger.  If you are only carrying a few dozen people you can probably do it cheaper in a bus.  I don't see how you can say that there is insufficient  demand for travel to justify an upgrade when demand is artifically surpressed by high fares on every intercity route