Lots of train failures/short formed trains

[whole diary]

[willc]

Really not sure how we ever got on to who signs Adelantes or not. Crew in Devon don't work Oxford and Cotswold duties anyway, do they, and don't sign Turbos either, so what's that got to do with Ian's original point?

The 180s have been pretty much confined to Oxford and Cotswold Line work for months now, though the odd one has escaped to Bristol and Cheltenham in recent weeks, presumably crewed from London or Reading.

The point was about 180s and Turbos starting to creep back on Oxford and Cotswold workings - needless to say without FGW^▸ (First Great Western) having the courtesy to tell anyone about these Turbo changes, which from what has been said here now seem to be set in stone for months to come and, given past form, I have little doubt they will become permanent.

It's pretty clear HST^▸ (High Speed Train) availability is not (and never has been?) at the level needed to cover all the services marked with that little 'H' in the timetables and one more set won't solve that problem - and out here, we know full well whose HST is the first to get swiped when things go wrong.

We seem to be heading back into the 'it's only the Cotswold Line' state of mind, which prevailed for so long under Thames, as well as FGW. If we are promised lots of HSTs, which we were from the December 2007 timetable, it's a bit much when they start to disappear again, especially to be replaced by the very Turbo trains that FGW told us weren't adequate for the route any more when they took it over in 2004 and the Adelante was hailed as the bright shining future - even if the ride was rubbish on the remaining bits of jointed rail.

The bright new dawn of December 2010 will look anything but if a third of the trains on the route are still being operated by tired, grubby versions of what was the bright new dawn back in 1993. We are now nearly three years into the franchise and there's still no sign of any contract for work on the Turbo fleet.

And a PS for anyone reading this at Reading depot or Old Oak Common. The same Turbo - 166216, I believe - was on the 05.42 etc diagram today, with the corridor connection door still malfunctioning and letting in a nice cold breeze at 90mph. It's on the driving car at the west end of the train. Please fix it.

[BBM]

The current state of Turbos is a disgrace with plastic wall panels looking ready to fall off and floor coverings being very worn and uneven. However all things considered I think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) look after them much better than Thames Trains ever did. In TT days you often couldn't see out of the windows because of condensation inside the glazed unit and vandal scratchings on the outside, and the floors would be ankle-deep in litter even first thing in the morning.

Even so I can't understand why FGW is apparently currently doing nothing to improve the very tired interiors of what I suspect is now the worst outer-surburban stock on the London and SE rail network. Do any of our insiders have any news on any future progress?

[IanL]

The original point (illustrated by the Cotswold Line situation) was that lots of services are being short-formed across the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network, this morning of the 24 service alterations 20 were short-formed services due to a train failure (all info from FGW live updates).

But being more specific as WillC notes, the 1008 from Charlbury was this morning a turbo again instead of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train), the timetable still shows it as an HST but there was no service revision in the live updates so perhaps this is an official service revision but it would be nice of FGW to confirm this to passengers. However this morning the service did not connect up with another 166/165 3 car unit at Oxford so it will have been very cramped from oxford onwards.

To WillC: I think we must travel in the same carriage sometimes as I also noted the door that tries to close 5-10 times before succeeding!

[tramway]

Although this thread seems to be concentrating the minds of those around the Dreaming Spires, we still have a lack of Wessex 158's which have caused a few problems in the past few weeks.

It has been suggested that the re-refurbish programme might be to blame, as usual the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) web site is devoid of info and still refers to the original refresh, funnily enough without dates.

I have had a quick trawl in older posts to look for the one I remember which referred to the need to fit seats without fold down tables and that this was to be addressed in due course. It would be interesting to know if that and the fixing of the air-con and public info screens are also included if this is indeed the case.

[dog box]

 I bet regular users of the Barnstaple  Branch would perform cartwheels if a turbo showed up,.....bring on the 4 car 142 Oxford to Great Malvern semi fast nodding express. lol

[Btline]

Yes, but the Barnstaple line is a branch line. (although the 142s are woefully adequate for the 20th Century 21st Century)

The Cotswold line is a InterCity line. It therefore requires InterCity stock (HST^▸ (High Speed Train), or at the very least a 180).

Thames Turbos are cramped even for similar outer commuter lines, if you look at Southeastern, Southern and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) (although 3+2 is creeping in, I admit).

[devon_metro]

The Cotswolds Line is hardly intercity. Its painfully slow.

[willc]

The Cotswolds Line is hardly intercity. Its painfully slow.

Not inter-city, no, but it's not suburban either and apart from the bits of 2+2 standard class seating with tables in the 166 trailer cars and a coupe bit next to the doors by first class in the 165 composite (were these sections originally meant to be first class?), the entire fleet is 3+2 seats, which is inner-suburban style.

A reworked 166, with new 2+2 seats throughout, vestibule doors to keep the cold out of the saloons in the winter and a thorough, top-to-bottom deep clean - and air conditioning which actually works and fully sealed windows - would be more acceptable, by slightly closing the yawning gap in quality of passenger environment with a 180 or Mk3, but I don't suppose it will happen, as every seat is needed for Thames Valley peak trains.

The problems further afield on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network are no different really from what's happening on Oxford and Cotswolds services. The train fleet is stretched thin to start with and high levels of availabiity are required from trains that, apart from the 180s, were built a very long time ago.

At least someone seemed to have relented last night and sent an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) out on the 15.51, as one passed my train home as I was leaving Oxford on the 20.22, which I took to be the return working (leaves Oxford 20.31).

PS Ian: If only it had been 5-10 goes (that's a good set of Turbo doors these days) this one takes several minutes, usually closing just in time for the next station stop, when someone walks up the train, starting it off all over again...

[IndustryInsider]

...and a coupe bit next to the doors by first class in the 165 composite (were these sections originally meant to be first class?), the entire fleet is 3+2 seats, which is inner-suburban style.

Yes they were. In fact they actually were 1st Class seats for a couple of years after introduction. This gave 24 1st Class seats as opposed to 16 on a 165, but the decision was soon taken that standard class seats would be a better use of capacity. There used to be a manual opening glass partition door separating this additional 1st Class section with Standard Class - this was receiving a fair amount of vandalism so was sensibly removed.

[eightf48544]

The Cotswolds Line is hardly intercity. Its painfully slow.

Not inter-city, no, but it's not suburban either and apart from the bits of 2+2 standard class seating with tables in the 166 trailer cars and a coupe bit next to the doors by first class in the 165 composite (were these sections originally meant to be first class?), the entire fleet is 3+2 seats, which is inner-suburban style.

As wiilc you are right the 8 seats in the bay in the middle next to the first class were originally first class but Thames? trains sensibly made it second class. Well it was hardly first class you had all the hoi poli coming through it to get to the doors plus they also stood  and sat in it so it was impossible to police on a crowded train. Regulars always make a beeline for those seats.

A four car 2*2 seat 166 (a slotted in 172 coach?) with SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) and working airconditioning would be a super train for the Cotswold line.  You could run in pairs in peak although getting the pasengers in the right set for the shorter platforms might be a problem.

I always wondered why they weren't fitted with gangways between sets considering the services they were designed for Bedwyn Oxford Banbury Cotswold.

[G.Uard]

I also thought that a 17x setup would be appropriate for the Cotswold Line.  The AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) sets on Nottingham-Cardiff are very comfortable and reasonably spacious.  Only problem is the limited top speed of 100mph, which would probably see them relegated to the slow line from at least Reading, en route to Pad. 

[inspector_blakey]

A four car 2*2 seat 166 (a slotted in 172 coach?) with SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) and working airconditioning would be a super train for the Cotswold line.  You could run in pairs in peak although getting the pasengers in the right set for the shorter platforms might be a problem.

I always wondered why they weren't fitted with gangways between sets considering the services they were designed for Bedwyn Oxford Banbury Cotswold.

Probably because the trains are designed for DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) so noone cared about whether or not a conductor could walk though the train.

I think the 17x argument for the Cotswold line is a persuasive one. The Adelantes always seemed ideally suited to me, but HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are rather cumbersome: the huge numbers of short platforms and slam-doors must result in long dwell times and make the conductor's job a bit of a nightmare, and combined with relatively slow acceleration must be a real pain for timekeeping.

[Btline]

The line needs 125 mph stock for the London to Oxford stretch.

if you reduce this to 100 mph, there trains will go on the slow lines (until Crossrail starts) or will slow down HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) on the fast lines. It would also reduce service recovery and extend journey times even more.

I think HSTs are fine for the job. Yes, the acceleration is poor, but some journeys are 3+ hrs.

[Mookiemoo]

Remember cotswolds line goes all the way to hereford - even on a refurbed 166 - unless its SIGNIFICANTLY better that the current - I would not want to be on it

[willc]

Perhaps I should have clarified matters. I wasn't suggesting a wholesale return of Turbos or something similar. There was a good reason for displacing them, which was that, apart from the middle of the day, they could no longer cope with the traffic on offer, because it had grown so much over the 10 years they formed the core of the service.

Even a four-car set (for which SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) would be essential) would be inadequate for services at the shoulders of the peaks, like the 8.52 from Malvern and 15.51 from Paddington, as the Adelantes also are. A six-car Adelante would have been a better bet, but you still need an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s seating capacity for the peak.

What I was suggesting was a way of improving the 166 passenger environment, so it isn't such a stark contrast between the two types of train if, as now seems likely, the Cotswold Line (and Oxford fasts) are going to get stuck with more Turbos off-peak, because the HST fleet apparently can't meet all the demands placed on it.

You can hear the mutterings of discontent when a Turbo comes into view approaching the stations here, because even infrequent travellers know the state they are in and because they have got used to inter-city type trains. That's because at every recent December timetable change FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has promised ever more Adelantes, and then HSTs, on the line - but now starts taking them off without actually bothering to tell anyone - or do they have a magic wand to wave in May that will suddenly improve HST availability again?

It's fine and dandy providing an HST on the 21.48 from London to position a train at Worcester for the morning, but they are actually needed when there are lots of passengers out there and that's on the 05.42 diagram - that first journey out of London may be quiet but its two most important journeys the rest of the day are anything but.