More rolling stock

[whole diary]

[MarkRanger]

Guys,

I am not an industry insider, so I am putting myself up for being shot down with this one, but I was reading in RAIL magazine at lunch time about the huge number of locos that DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) Schenker have put out to graze during the downturn, from class 37 to 92 if I recall.

Are there a similar number of old coaches not being used, and if so, is it not possible to put some top and tail units together to ease some of the motive power issues that we hear about all the time?

I keep on thinking that there is a gap in the market for another type of open access TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), one that offers a slightly slower service, with older stock, but was really designed to be customer friendly.

Not really turn up traffic oriented but forward booking (lower ticket prices), guaranteed seats, perhaps secondary termini (in my area I think Stratford could be used instead of Liverpool Street and then up the West Anglia route - and beyond to Norwich, ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), Kings Lynn etc etc). But an on board experience that really enjoys having you on board - regular - personal - PA^▸ (Public Address) use, mobile snacks, perhaps wireless internet.

And clean coaches - not new, but clean.

Two Class 37s on a (say) 5/6 coach train would offer startling performance, and very capable of operating if one fails. I am sure they'd be expensive to operate, but surely very cheap to lease?

I keep on thinking about the Tornado run this weekend. 500 pax, 13 coaches and literally thousands of onlookers. I just think someone is missing a trick here.....

Mark

[G.Uard]

Hi MarkRanger, welcome!

I don't think you will be 'shot down' for posting a considered opinion.  Several other members are keen proponents of loco haulage and your idea certainly seems to make sense.  After all, both ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are currently running loco hauled sets and the feedback has been very positive.

With regard to a slower service with older stock, FGW West could easily be an offshoot of the NRM^» (National Railway Museum, at York and Shildon - about).  Most of our stock is 'mature' to put it kindly. 

[Btline]

ScotRail are using old stock to run more frequent commuter trains in Edinburgh.

The decision was praised.

[welshman]

Until not so long ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) used to run evening rush hour trains from Cardiff up the Rhymney Valley using a 37 and 4 coaches instead of a two/four car 142/143/150.  They junked that when they got some more 150s from First ScotRail. 

A pity really.  A 37 gets 4 coaches off the line a bit more smartly than a Pacer.

Does anyone know what the relative economics of loco haul v DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) are?  Presumably 1,750 bhp of 37 uses a bit more fuel than 850 bhp of 4 car Pacer.

[John R]

ALso the Track Access charges will be a lot higher, and leasing costs probably higher for a train that only got used for one return trip a day. And the getaways are only sharper if the pax close the doors.

But it was a shame. I went on the last weekend of services, when they had 3 separate loco hauled trains running up and down the Rhymney Valley. 

[tramway]

Good question well asked regarding leasing costs of LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock), and this has been raised on a number of occasions, although there is nothing specific as I^m sure there is commercial confidentiality regarding any particular lease.

I certain there was a very good response to this question a while ago although I am unable to track down the particular thread, but this link and comments by Graham regarding investigations into the Transwilts route have a bit of detail.

I would be grateful if the particular thread I was thinking of could be found as it was quite detailed in a cost/coach comparison.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2865.0

As well as the initial cost of the stock lease there are also factors such as the safety case and track access costs which are an additional considerable burden to be considered for LHCS as against DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)^s.

In the Cl31^s scenario Wessex were able to use in house resources, whereas FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are contracting the whole package from Db Schenker (ex EWS^▸ (English Welsh & Scottish Railway Ltd, now known as DB Schenker Rail (UK^▸ (United Kingdom)))) and there was probably considerable pressure on DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) from FGW to allow them to do this in the absence of anything else they could reasonably do not to default on their franchise commitments, and their promises to Government to tidy up their act following the dark days of 2006/07, AND the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) 150^s are still here.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Is this possibly what you are referring to, tramway?

See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1277.msg8658#msg8658

[tramway]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the link although I did unearth that one while I was searching but it wasn't the one I had in mind, possibly memory playing tricks.

It was some time ago and IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) also dealt with comparative fuel costs as well, as I say I thought it was quite comprehensive so thought it worthwhile having a look, although I didn't have a great deal of time to use the search facility, and threads do tend to meander a bit so it could be anywhere. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmmm. 

Other possibilities, then:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=924

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2916.msg28838#msg28838

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=790

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1090.msg5742#msg5742

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=937.msg4342#msg4342

If it's not among any of those - sorry, but I'm inclined to give up searching! 

[thetrout]

I keep on thinking that there is a gap in the market for another type of open access TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), one that offers a slightly slower service, with older stock, but was really designed to be customer friendly.

I don't think thats a stupid idea at all. I personally want to see a service to Minehead

Not really turn up traffic oriented but forward booking (lower ticket prices), guaranteed seats, perhaps secondary termini (in my area I think Stratford could be used instead of Liverpool Street and then up the West Anglia route - and beyond to Norwich, ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), Kings Lynn etc etc). But an on board experience that really enjoys having you on board - regular - personal - PA^▸ (Public Address) use, mobile snacks, perhaps wireless internet.

I think personally any form of Open Access Train Operator is always a good thing, I recently travelled with Wrexham & Shropshire and that was a major eye opener into what rail travel could be.

Now before anyone says i'm slating the existing providers, i'm not I just think that things could be done differently

I had the following route as an Idea:

Taunton - Castle Cary - Bruton - Frome - Westbury - Trowbridge - Melksham - Chippenham - Swindon - London

Using MKII stock and maybe a Class 47 top and tail. With the following route there is potential for a large amount of money to be made, considering for example the demand of Melksham as i'm sure grahame will happily tell you Also the demand of Castle Cary - Chippenham of Wiltshire College students and the Private schools in Bruton.

The only problem is that you need a large some of cash to setup an Open Access Operation. There are documents on the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) websites about starting OA Operations.

There are plenty of routes in the South West as i'm sure other users will tell you that could be well served with an OA company.

As you pointed out the route need to be fast, aminly about customer service so that people will want to travel with you. Maybe offer complimentary tea & coffee to passengers of both classes like Midland Mainline used to offer. Also offer a complimentary meal to First Class Passengers but still offer a dining service to Standard Class.

In all honesty I would love to start a train company but simply put, don't have the finances, so unless someone wants to invest *laughs* it isn't going to happen

[stebbo]

Aaaah, a good old class 47 and some lovely mark 2s with tables and a good view out of the window. Sheer luxury.

[Btline]

I think the Reading to Paddington line is full. It would have to go to Waterloo.

[thetrout]

I think the Reading to Paddington line is full. It would have to go to Waterloo.

Yes I knew there was severe oversubscribed and bottlenecks in Reading. I was thinking (as grahame suggested) via Oxford and Bicester Chord into Marlybone

But I see no reason why you could not go into Waterloo or Victoria via but not calling at Clapham Junction. Maybe use one of the old Eurostar platforms at Waterloo?

[Btline]

It is the infrastructure outside Waterloo, not the number of platforms, which is limiting service growth.

Avoiding Clapham Junction would help, but how long would it take to get there?

[thetrout]

I'm struggling to find a route into Waterloo that avoids Clapham Junction without using the LU Network, which I think would be frowned heavily upon