Electrification and its implications for Bath's heritage (merged topics)

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

Sorry if this is a particularly stupid or naive question, but why is there what appears to be a universal assumption that overhead power lines are going to be installed - has that been explicitly stated anywhere?

Just for the sake of argument, what's to stop SouthWest Trains for example bidding for & winning the franchise at some future date and laying a 3rd rail power source to run their trains through Bath?

It's still electrification of the route, but I fail to see how laying a third rail alongside the existing line could have much of an "impact both visually and structurally on the Brunel assets, particularly through Bath" - hence my question: why the assumption?

Open conductor third rail electrification, like that used on the former Southern Railway Company lines, does not comply with modern safety legislation this has been the case for over 30 years even more acutely withe the 1989 Electricity at Work regulations, the only way the Bournemouth / Weymouth line and the Tonbridge / Hastings line etc were electrified 20 plus was because they were extensions of the existing system; there is some debate inside electrification whether Basinstoke to Exciter would be allowed to be done as third rail; NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are very unlikely to use the under con rail pick up system like the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) as that would be a non compatable system and imposes loading gauge restrictions. 

Network Rails and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) preferred system is 25kV to be technically correct 50kV Autotransformer system, the grid feeders for GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) are London at Old Oak Common, Didcot, Bristol area and one in South Wales somewhere near Cardiff, if you look at the way the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) was electrified there were twice as many feeder station for the same distance, if Bath were done as third rail it would need potentially 4 large substations double 4MW rectifier sites take up large bits of land and it would be an isolated system all on its own totally impracticable given the amount of immunisation required between DC^▸ (Direct Current) and AC systems

[moonrakerz]

Your plug in the wall is 250v.  

It isn't actually - it's 240 - but it isn't that either because the EU^» (European Union - about) says we must call it 230, even though it isn't ! 

[Phil]

Your plug in the wall is 250v. 

It isn't actually - it's 240 - but it isn't that either because the EU^» (European Union - about) says we must call it 230, even though it isn't ! 

If we're going to be pedantic, presumably the plug is none of the above - the socket however... 

[Tim]

The obvious answer is some sort of glass/perspex wall.

That was one of the proposals.  IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) another solution was to build a high fence but start it in a ditch so it didn't appear so high from a distance.

[Timmer]

According to the Bath Chronicle they are trying again:
http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/news/New-campaign-heritage-status-Great-Western-Railway/article-2455506-detail/article.html

A new campaign has been launched to win international heritage status for the railway line through Bath. Government officials are compiling a fresh list of buildings and places to be put forward to UNESCO as potential World Heritage Sites. It will replace Britain^s previous Tentative List, which was drawn up in 1999 and which included key stretches of Brunel^s Great Western Railway. Work by the pressure group Bath Heritage Watchdog has ensured that the historic railway has joined nearly 40 other sites on a new long list drawn up by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

It is now keen for people in the city to press the case for the line^s inclusion ^ but it faces opposition from Network Rail, which is responsible for its upkeep.

[eightf48544]

I've used Electric Trian's argument about Brunel spinning in his grave re wires over Maidenhead Bridge. It is my contention that if he had had 25KV overhead technology we would have now have 200+ mph Broad gauge trains flying across the bridge.

One area I do have some sympathy for the Bath residents resisistence to  Networks Rail's proposal to put up pallisade (not sure if right term, you know the grey spikey stuff) fencing on the wall in Sydney Gardens to stop the little dears getting on the line or, when it is electrified frying themselves by swinging from the wires.

[Tim]

I think the options for Sydney gardens whilst a shame are not your standard NR^» (Network Rail - home page) grey pallisade.  I went to an exhibition of options a while ago and they are -  short railing onto of existing wall (my preference as you can still get close but apparently this risks damage to the existig wall), a new but fancy looking olde worlde fence back from the existing wall or a Ha-Hal ditch arrangement.

A shame anything at all is needed here, but I can well believe that it is and if it is done sensitively I would be happy.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Network Rail press release:

Network Rail is calling for the public to choose their preferred type of ornate fencing to secure the railway boundary at Sydney Gardens at a public exhibition on 4 November.

This public exhibition follows on from the consultation held in February 2009, when ornate fencing was found to be the preferred option to secure the railway at Sydney Gardens.

The public will have the opportunity to choose from three fencing designs in the style of Victorian, Georgian and contemporary at the exhibition. The most popular design will be put forward to the council for final consent prior to work starting by Spring 2011.

Kristian Alexander, community relations manager for Network Rail said, ^The public and the council are supportive of Network Rail's work to help make the railway at Sydney Gardens safe. Around 99% of people consulted had agreed that we need to take actions to deter trespassers and vandals in the area, and majority of them had also agreed to back any planning application made to secure the railway.

^To maintain the character of the park while securing the area, we have also taken extra steps in creating three design options for the public to choose from. The chosen ornate fencing will have no impact on listed structures in the area and it will also come with gates for people to access during special events.^

The exhibitions will be held from 10am ^ 8pm at Mercure Francis Hotel (Queen Square, Bath) and public can use the opportunity to view the fencing options, ask any questions and share their comments and feedback.

Public who are unable to attend and would like a copy of the proposals displayed may contact Network Rail on 08457 114141 or email crwest@networkrail.co.uk

Notes to Editors:

In the last three years, there were more than 95 reported incidents of trespass ^ at least one incident had occurred every other week. Last year, nearly half of the incidents involved children or young people and in one occasion, a group of youths were spotted trespassing and placing an object on the track.

The low wall that separates the track and the garden has enabled trespassers and vandals to access the railway easily. There is also the issue of people sitting on the wall and dangling their feet over it, putting themselves at risk of being dragged under by oncoming high speed trains that travel at 40mph on average.

Despite previous efforts to stamp out railway crimes in the area, additional deterrence is considered vital and this decision is backed by the West Country Community Safety Partnership Group, Office of Rail Regulation and British Transport Police.

[Tim]

Nice to see that they are taking care over this.  I have to say that the contempary style although very attractive does look like it would be rather easy to climb (put your foot in the circles).  Sometime with spikes might be better in this regard.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I agree, Tim.

The 'contemporary' is perhaps the neatest, but I'd suggest the 'Georgian' is more appropriate for Bath - the 'Victorian' looks rather too stark, to me.

[JayMac]

I can't see the naysaying folk of Bath going for something that is described as 'contemporary'. Not a word that sits well with a lot of people in that city. I can just see the letters to The Chronicle.....

What will the stick-in-the-mud/NiMBY brigade say when (if) the leccy knitting goes up?

[Tim]

What will the stick-in-the-mud/NiMBY brigade say when (if) the leccy knitting goes up?

Oh they have started already.  There have been comments in the Chronical suggesting that third-rail needs to be installed for the bit through Bath!! Personally, I think the out of control Budlea is doing more harm to the pretty bits of the railway through Bath than an electrifcation gang could ever do.

[eightf48544]

I always thought Budlea was Networkrail's choice of shrub to attract butterflies.

Although I think I read somewhere that's it's probably not a good idea not to allow it colonise stone walls. Something about the roots gradually displacing the mortar and bringing the wall down. Probably an old wives tale.

[Phil]

The term "contemporary fencing" in railway parlance conjurs up pictures in my mind of mile after mile of colourful graffiti tags.

I somehow think this isn't quite what the good people of Bath have in mind.

[JayMac]

Network Rail certainly haven't gone for anything 'contemporary' or 'Victorian' with the fencing they have just erected in Sydney Gardens. 'Cheap' maybe, and hopefully 'temporary'.

From the Bath Chronicle:

Park-goers rail against new fence blocking popular Bath view of trains

People have reacted angrily to a new safety fence which partially blocks off the view of trains travelling through a Bath beauty spot.

For more than 150 years residents and visitors alike have been able to stand in a section of Sydney Gardens next to the railway line and wave at the trains as they pass through.

However, because of safety concerns from the rail regulator, Network Rail has been forced to erect a temporary tall, wooden structure to fence off the line from the park.

Steve Parkes regularly travels from Bristol with his three children, aged between six and 11, to watch the trains in the park and said he was disappointed by the move.

He said: "I know you are always going to get trespassers on the railway, but the people who go there, most of them have got common sense.

"I just don't know why they would put up any kind of horrendous fencing. For us, it is all part of coming over to Bath. We all like trains but my little boy especially likes it. We are just going to have to find somewhere else."

Glen Batten has also expressed his concerns about the fence, saying: "It effectively blocks the view of the trains, and certainly messes up what has for generations been a classic location for railway photography.

"The reason, apparently, is to separate people from high speed trains, which actually don't travel at particularly high speed at this point. But just how many fatalities or injuries have taken place here? The fence would certainly not be a barrier to a determined suicide."

Councillor Nicholas Coombes (Lib Dem, Bathwick) said he was not convinced by the safety argument and said the fence's only saving grace was that it was a temporary measure.

The long-term plan is to be looked at in greater detail as part of the regeneration of Sydney Gardens, which is due to take place over the next few years.

He said: "This is just the start of the process; residents and park users will be involved, but it may take several years yet.

"We think that the current safety concerns, and also the risk posed by the high voltage power lines of electrification, can be overcome by a good design that reconciles the different needs.

"For example, secluded areas beside the track prone to inappropriate behaviour could be closed completely, while we would like a large, pleasant and safe viewing area to remain.

"While we have not been convinced of the need for this fence, Network Rail are entitled to put it up.

"The timber fence is less intrusive and cheaper for the public purse than earlier designs and will allow us to find a more acceptable and comprehensive solution in the future."

A spokesman for Network Rail said they had consulted local residents and found that most were in favour of some kind of safety measure to protect children and vulnerable people falling onto the track.

A statement from Bath and North East Somerset Council said more consultation was needed before permission was granted for a permanent fence.

Do Network Rail need the permission of the local authority to build a fence on their property? I thought as a 'statutory undertaking' they didn't need planning permission from LAs, rather the application is made to the Secretary of State for Transport.

I was in a train passing through Sydney Gardens a few weeks ago. I saw a young child walking along the wall holding his (I assume) Mum's hand. If a fence is needed to stop that sort of parental irresponsibility then so be it.