I E P why do we need it?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

As for longer trains, you would need to rebuild the entire throat at Paddington, King's Cross, etc, to allow their use. Instead, how about a series E4 double-decker Shinkansen train, eight cars (6x25m and 2x25.7m driving cars), distributed power so no problem up Dainton Bank, seating capacity 817 people! Seems like FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have got a way to go to achieve true high capacity.

That's the equivalent length (200m) to a 10 coach train of old Southern Region EPB slamdoor stock (the stuff I was "brought up on".  See http://www.kentrail.co.uk/Class%20415.htm .  Quick calculation of their capacity.

4 x 4 EPB power cars - 2 compartments at 11 + 6 at 10 = 82 / car = 328 seats
2 x gangwayed trailers, with 2 at 11 and 8 at 10 = 102 / car = 204 seats
2 x "singles" trailers, with 10 at 12 = 120 / car = 240 seats
1 x 2 EPB power car with same seating as a 4 EPB power car = 82 seats
1 x 2 EPB power car with 2 compartments at 11, 2 at 10 and 5 at 12 = 102 seats

So that's 936 seats!

(That's units 5001 to 5053 for the 4 EPB calculation, except 5005 (or was it 5008) that was 12 less because it was built with wide singles for some reason I don't know, and 5701 to 5750 or so for the 2 EPBs.   The 5100 to 5260 series had the same 4 EPB capacity but a different layout, and the last 15 2 EPB units had one less compartment and a bigger luggage van - for their previous Tyneside use in carrying boxes of fish, I just learned today)

[Btline]

How did VXC^▸ (Virgin Cross Country - former franchise) get to Portsmouth from Reading?

[IndustryInsider]

How did VXC^▸ (Virgin Cross Country - former franchise) get to Portsmouth from Reading?

Via Guildford and Havant usually.

[Btline]

I bet journey times were poor.

Didn't VXC^▸ (Virgin Cross Country - former franchise) run the Paddington services with 158s? (B'ham, Stroud, Swindon, London)

[devon_metro]

I bet journey times were poor.

Didn't VXC^▸ (Virgin Cross Country - former franchise) run the Paddington services with 158s? (B'ham, Stroud, Swindon, London)

No - Voyagers

[willc]

Buried away in Modern Railways for February is an interesting nugget that seems to suggest 2016 could be the end of the road for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), as Alstom, which makes the Automatic Train Protection system, has given notice it will not provide maintenance support beyond 2016. So short of equipping trains with a couple of years' life left in them with expensive new ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) kit, that's it for the 125s if use of ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection) or something with a similar function is to remain compulsory.

Alstom also supplies the different ATP system used on the Chiltern Line, where it has said it will only make two more trains' worth of kit, beyond that already on order for the 172s and will end maintenance support by 2019.

Yep I read that bit. Hope DafT call Alstom's bluff and give the contract a British manufacturer.

The reason Alstom are giving notice is that the ATP kit will be obsolete and ready for the dustbin, indeed, compared to cab signalling/ATP systems used elsewhere, you could argue it is already. You're talking about early 1990s technology. Are you still using an early 1990s computer? No-one would be interested in taking over from Alstom.

And Modern Railways also noted that there will be implications for Chiltern anyway from resignalling of the London Underground sub-surface lines, including the Metropolitan, which Chiltern uses south of Amersham, so their trains will need new kit for that.

Alstom has extensive operations in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and is one of Network Rail's key signalling suppliers, so has strong British credentials.

Voyagers only ran for a brief period to Paddington before the 2002 timetable changes, when XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) stopped running east of Reading. For most of the years before that it was 47s and Mk2s^▸ (Mark 2 coach).

As far as I can remember, the 158s ran Birmingham-Swindon only, before Virgin dropped its plan to keep on some 2+5 HSTs which would have run Birmingham-Paddington via Stroud. As a result, the local services from Swindon to Cheltenham reverted to Wessex Trains.

[IndustryInsider]

Voyagers only ran for a brief period to Paddington before the 2002 timetable changes, when XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) stopped running east of Reading. For most of the years before that it was 47s and Mk2s^▸ (Mark 2 coach).

And the destination of Paddington was more on operational grounds than anything else as the stock (LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) or Voyagers) was serviced overnight at Old Oak Common. I think there was only one train - a lunchtime arrival at Paddington - that then formed a service back out that same day. Though of course XC continued running east of Reading as far as Acton from 2002 up until last December with the Brighton trains that were routed via Kensington Olympia.

[Electric train]

As for longer trains, you would need to rebuild the entire throat at Paddington, King's Cross, etc, to allow their use. Instead, how about a series E4 double-decker Shinkansen train, eight cars (6x25m and 2x25.7m driving cars), distributed power so no problem up Dainton Bank, seating capacity 817 people! Seems like FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have got a way to go to achieve true high capacity.

Or .......... now this is radical ................... make the concorse smaller back to where it was in the 1980's 

[Btline]

You mean like what they are going to do to Waterloo?

[onthecushions]

"A capacity of 817 small healthy Japanese people equates to about 300 average sized over-weight pasty chomping British people!"

.... perhaps we should look for great things from the Sushi bar on the lawn.

I have a Japanese friend who has commuted from Reading to Paddington for 15 or so years. He says our trains are wonderfully comfortable, uncrowded, more punctual and reliable than  commuter trains in Japan (but not Shinkasen).

"As for longer trains, you would need to rebuild the entire throat at Paddington, King's Cross, etc, to allow their use. "

As has been pointed out, it would help if we used all of the train sheds for trains, not coffee shops etc. Concourses should go in the air space above trains and platforms, even in heritage stations. Platform 1 at Paddington, although mutilated, is basically long enough for anything already.

That might allow 2 extra cars

The usable length of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is only 184m but it occupies 220m. A 10-car Wessex electric (Class 442) has nearly 230 m, because the workings have been squirrelled away underfloor, like tube trains. The innovation required is to produce a unit train with all or much of its gear underfloor.

Extra 2 (passenger) cars possible?

There's always Waterloo International....

OTC

[Electric train]

You mean like what they are going to do to Waterloo?

No, I am on about moving the stop blocks back to half way between where they are now and the Lawn or even more radical move the stop blocks back to the Lawn ........... not sure where all the passengers would have to wait now the Lawn is full of retail and stairways

[John R]

As has been pointed out, it would help if we used all of the train sheds for trains, not coffee shops etc.

The usable length of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is only 184m but it occupies 220m. A 10-car Wessex electric (Class 442) has nearly 230 m, because the workings have been squirrelled away underfloor, like tube trains. The innovation required is to produce a unit train with all or much of its gear underfloor.

Some coffee shops are quite useful. 

That's because an HST doesn't have its engines underfloor, and thus a much quieter ambience which most people prefer than having a diesel throbbing underneath you for x hours. The answer is of course to electrify, when you can use more or less the full length of the train, as pendolinos have shown. 

[thetrout]

Some coffee shops are quite useful. 

That's because an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) doesn't have its engines underfloor, and thus a much quieter ambience which most people prefer than having a diesel throbbing underneath you for x hours. The answer is of course to electrify, when you can use more or less the full length of the train, as pendolinos have shown. 

I agree. Having underfloor engines on long distance IC^▸ (Inter City) travel is not fun. All you can hear is the engine roaring whilst travelling at 100MPH on a voyager. I was once sat on an Adelante at Exeter St Davids and it was vibrating quite violently and I was bouncing around in my seat, again not fun!

However, the HST, 225 or LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) is quite comfortable to sit on and, you dont hear the engine as much. Nor do you have your cup of tea slopping everywhere 

[willc]

The innovation required is to produce a unit train with all or much of its gear underfloor.

Not exactly innovative, as has been said Pendolinos manage it. Japanese Shinkansen have always been built like this, also the German ICE3 and its derivatives for export and Alstom has come up with the AGV, ordered by an Italian open access operator, even if SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) is sticking with power car TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) for the time being.

With electrification, you have a golden opportunity to build trains to UIC gauge anyway, as bridges will need replacing to give clearance for catenary. The post-modernisation WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) is now W12 gauge all the way to Glasgow, including some pretty tight tunnels. If this gauge was adopted as standard, it would also allow taller, wider passenger trains to operate, as it is built for 9ft 6in tall, 2.6m wide container boxes.

And at King's Cross, the entire length of the train shed always has been used for the trains.

[smokey]

Double deckera as not the solution either as dwells are increased.

How about the reintroduction of broad guage?

But Brunel's broad gauge whilst much wider track (7ft 1/4inch) the carriages were much the same width as Standard gauge stock, hence with far less bodywork overhanging the rails, far greater speed around curves was allowed, and a far smoother ride on straight track