refurb voyager

[whole diary]

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

more competitition and more profits would improve service it there two routes for you to chose one new trains on time with a seat and great service and one an old banger packed out and your standing which would you choose it's a no brainer!?

[Zoe]

more competitition and more profits would improve service it there two routes for you to chose one new trains on time with a seat and great service and one an old banger packed out and your standing which would you choose it's a no brainer!?

You are assuming the private companies will use any profit they have to improve services rather than paying it to shareholders.  In many cases this is not the way it works in business.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

more competitition and more profits would improve service it there two routes for you to chose one new trains on time with a seat and great service and one an old banger packed out and your standing which would you choose it's a no brainer!?

You are assuming the private companies will use any profit they have to improve services rather than paying it to shareholders.  In many cases this is not the way it works in business.

.

Maybe I should have clarified regulated

Companys must meet comunity set targets and goals

[Zoe]

Maybe I should have clarified regulated

Companys must meet comunity set targets and goals

What would be the point of having a private company if it's going to be so heavily regulated?  A public company would do the job quite well, would not put profit before service and any profit it could be reinvested without having to consider shareholders.

[thetrout]

What we need is 4 companies:

Company 1 to operate Long Distance IC^▸ (Inter City) Routes
Company 2 to operate Local/Medium Distance Routes
Company 3 to operate London Commuter Services
Company 4 to operate Tram Routes e.g. Manchester & Tyne and Wear Metro's

Then we don't need to change the livery every franchise.

If it were to be a government owned group, then any profits made should go towards the following:

Improving Reliablity of existing trains
Updating rolling stock to next generation of trains, e.g. IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)
Improving/Upgrading existing signalling systems
Reimplement the ticketing structure.
Propose HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))

and probably most important, Improving the network capacity in key area's e.g. Birmingham New Street, Reading, Bristol and ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line).

Having just re-read that I have come to the conclusion I am proposing a Re-nationalisation of the Railways...

[Zoe]

Company 1 to operate Long Distance IC^▸ (Inter City) Routes

Intericty?

Company 2 to operate Local/Medium Distance Routes

Regional Railways?

Company 3 to operate London Commuter Services

Network SouthEast?

Company 4 to operate Tram Routes e.g. Manchester & Tyne and Wear Metro's

You will need to think of a name for this.

Updating rolling stock to next generation of trains, e.g. IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)

As long as we don't get 4 car underfloor engine DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) on Paddington to Penzance.

Having just re-read that I have come to the conclusion I am proposing a Re-nationalisation of the Railways...

I agree, I'm just not sure basing it on business sectors and not regions is the best idea.  BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) was an engineering led railways before the 1980s sectorisation policy when it changed to a business led railway.

[thetrout]

As long as we don't get 4 car underfloor engine DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) on Paddington to Penzance.

I Agree, Sitting on a Voyager from Bristol to Newcastle, is not fun. I changed at York for the delights of an IC^▸ (Inter City) 225 which was good and really enjoyable considering I had never travelled on one before. Shame at the time GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) couldn't keep their HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s in as good a condition...

[/quote]
I agree, I'm just not sure basing it on business sectors and not regions is the best idea.  BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) was an engineering led railways before the 1980s sectorisation policy when it changed to a business led railway.
[/quote]

Definately. What I liked about BR was that each region was responsible for it's own track and repairs etc. Also there wasn't any of this messing around with pointless liveries. which granted some look good, but others don't do the trains any justice. take a look at NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) for example... 

Nowadays, theres so many contractors in the Railways, things such as engineering works, take much longer than actually necessary...

[Network SouthEast]

How Virgin were ever allowed to get away with ordering 4 coach underfloor engine DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) that were clearly not up to the job of running an intercity service from Plymouth to Edinburgh, I don't know.

To be fair to Virgin they ordered the trains when rail travel was in decline. It was when these units went into service that passenger numbers started to rise. XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) was always the arse-end of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) InterCity and 15 years later, not much has changed in the private sector!

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

and to be fair on the voyagers there decent trains just not fit for this purpose! would be perfect for say manchester airport to blackpool but not longer distance

[Btline]

and to be fair on the voyagers they're decent trains just not fit for this purpose! would be perfect for say manchester airport to blackpool but not longer distance

 
WHAT?

I could rattle off a 30 odd list of reasons why Voyagers a cr*p.

I have done so before on other threads.

Don't tempt me...

[willc]

and to be fair on the voyagers they're decent trains just not fit for this purpose! would be perfect for say manchester airport to blackpool but not longer distance

 
WHAT?

I could rattle off a 30 odd list of reasons why Voyagers a cr*p.

I have done so before on other threads.

Don't tempt me...

Please, no....

Rail traffic was already rising when Virgin ordered them, it always does when the economy is doing well.

The main problem was that at the time they were ordered, hard-headed railwaymen, aka Chris Green, were not involved with the business, so silly ideas like three classes (on a two-class railway) were given a hearing and by the time anyone said 'hang on', Bombardier in Bruges were merrily fitting those three disabled toilets, instead of the one that should have gone in at the end of first class where it met standard, nor did anyone ask 'what happens if a higher frequency attracts more passengers?'

But whatever their faults, they don't break down and I'd rather ride in one than such delights produced by the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) modernisation plan as the Cravens DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). How my heart sank when one of them turned up on the train home from school in West Yorkshire instead of a refurbished version of the local speciality, the Met-Cammell Class 102 power-twin, packing 600hp for 64 tons.

[Don]

But whatever their faults, they don't break down and I'd rather ride in one than such delights produced by the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) modernisation plan as the Cravens DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). How my heart sank when one of them turned up on the train home from school in West Yorkshire instead of a refurbished version of the local speciality, the Met-Cammell Class 102 power-twin, packing 600hp for 64 tons.

Oh I am not sure about this, I find it quite difficult to decide which is better.  Having traveled between Cheltenham and Leeds perhaps 50 times last year for work, we ended up finding reasons for going via London or if we couldn't we changed trains at Birmingham and went to Manchester on a Pendalino (however it is spelt).  Our only saving grace was when XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) re- introduced the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train). Even then the passenger loading was far to great for a HST, but at least you don't get the constant vibration and noise of the voyager engines, and this of course was the biggest problem with the 1st generation DMUs.

My biggest worry is that the HST's are now 40 years old, and, whilst still the best passenger rolling stock on the railways seem likely to be replaced by something Voyager-like and much, much, worse. 

My biggest hope is that XC manage to purchase some extra coaches to insert into the Voyagers (I know they can be at least 6 coaches) and that at least one of these will not have an engine under it. Then I can ride in that one.

[Btline]

Don't worry Willc, I've learnt to control myself now!

To be fair, they have big windows (if you have a seat with a view) and they speed up/slow down quickly.

They are probably better for the environment.

But I still hate them!

PS: "They don't break down" Dawlish sea wall? Computer problems? They do break down!

PPS: Any train like a voyager will always have all power coaches. Bad luck Don.

[Exeter]

Quite frankly - pre refurbishment they were were s**t!!!!!!! Post refurbishment I have no idea  - for my monthly trip from Oxford to Manchester I now drive. They are, without doubt, the most appalling things on the network. Without overeacting if I had the choice of Oxford - Manchester on a Voyager or a Turbo the Turbo would win hands down! Branson has got one hell of a lot to answer for! The last time I travelled by train back from Manchester we sat in Wolverhampton for 15 minutes because the thing was so rammed that half the people trying to get on it couldnt - but hey, I am sure the extra 14 seats make all the difference! Based on the fact that the original legroom was appalling I dread to think what the refurbs are like and I dont intend finding out! 

[willc]

PS: "They don't break down" Dawlish sea wall? Computer problems? They do break down!

Rarely and these are hardly the fundamental flaws which still afflict Adelantes to this day.

I suspect that if they had been built as the seven or eight-car sets they should have been, people probably wouldn't hate them quite so much, since they would be able to get a seat. The interior treatments of the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) Meridians and Hull Trains Pioneers are generally reckoned to be better than Virgin's effort.

You may not like sitting on top of a big Cummins diesel, but since HST^▸ (High Speed Train) production ended in 1982 and everyone else in Europe uses electric trains for long-distance work, the likes of Voyagers and Adelantes were all that train builders were prepared to offer.

They won't be lengthened because no-one is going to pay for it - and remember the utter shambles DafT made of Pendolino lengthening - so hope for an early start on electrification.

Making the best of a bad job, see if you can book first class advance - as the current thread in Fares Fair points out, it is often cheaper and legroom certainly isn't a problem in that coach - and never, ever travel XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) on a Sunday afternoon or evening.