WOW Arriva Win Cross-Country

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Virgin were doing a great job, making more calls at W-S-M and others, had very friendly staff, were constantly upgrading the standard of their trains and network, and lowering prices. Why take it off them when their route was progressing so well?

My understanding is that the main criteria are not the quality of the service or the price to passengers, but the ability to run the service to for the best financial position for the treasury, and (secondarily) to provide a service that doesn't require big network rail infrastructure investments, new trtain guarantees, etc.

I understand that the Virgin bosses have asked for a meeting with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to help them understand why their bid didn't come out on top.   I am, frankly, guessing with my comments above.  The National Express / Wessex bid for the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) frnachise was, I think, worth about 400 million less than the First bid and that was perhaps the most major factor in it going to First.   Why the franchises were joined .... don't ask me!

[Lee]

There are also doubts over whether trains will call at Weston - super - Mare (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17810761

the new cross country website at www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk clearly shows that weston is part of the NCC network.  it does not say how many trains will call though!

i am also interested in knowing if the through cardiff - newcastle service is till part of SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment).  (SLC2 in particular).

According to the link below.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/stakeholderbriefingdocumentn1632

No Cardiff - Newcastle service in SLC2 specification.

1 train in each direction per day to WSM required.

[simonw]

Hi

Some of the earlier replies have criticised Virgin's decision to opt for Voyager trains, saying they are unreliable and too short.

Are they less reliable than HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)? My experience with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) suggests not.

Whenever I use VxC, it is noticeable the number of people that get on/off at every station. Would it make sense to have larger trains that are only busy for a small part of a journey, or to use extra services to handle that capacity that way?

[Graz]

I understand that the Virgin bosses have asked for a meeting with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to help them understand why their bid didn't come out on top.   I am, frankly, guessing with my comments above.  The National Express / Wessex bid for the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) frnachise was, I think, worth about 400 million less than the First bid and that was perhaps the most major factor in it going to First.   Why the franchises were joined .... don't ask me!

Yes, it's all about money and little else...and my guess is that the joining of franchises would also save a bit of money! I'm definitely against big corporations running the majority of services, because it takes away the competition and focus on many of the smaller routes. And a result of that is usually higher prices and less bother when it comes down to what the public would like. A large company running local and intercity services is a mistake. Case in point-- again-- FGW!

According to the link below.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/stakeholderbriefingdocumentn1632

No Cardiff - Newcastle service in SLC2 specification.

1 train in each direction per day to WSM required.

Again, my case in point is that Virgin went above and beyond for passengers, one of the few companies left in which I felt they were catering for passengers' needs and it didn't all come down to money and bare minimum SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment) specifications. As much as I like ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))), I wouldn't be surprised at all if Arriva axed the Newcastle-Cardiff service and did the bare minimum for W-s-M.

Hi

Some of the earlier replies have criticised Virgin's decision to opt for Voyager trains, saying they are unreliable and too short.

Are they less reliable than HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)? My experience with FGW suggests not.

Whenever I use VxC, it is noticeable the number of people that get on/off at every station. Would it make sense to have larger trains that are only busy for a small part of a journey, or to use extra services to handle that capacity that way?

Yes, I also think they are reliable. Unlike others, I didn't mind travelling on Voyagers at all except when they were too busy. On my 3 years of travelling to Cheltenham there were only a handful of breakdowns or safety related cancellations. And I agree, it would be a good idea to use longer trains- an idea would be to use 2 x Voyager sets for busy periods as 2 voyagers coupled together form a high capacity peak service.

[Lee]

Here's another thing I noticed :

From the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) link below :
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/stakeholderbriefingdocumentn1632

"Catering will be provided on all trains with an at-seat trolley service in Standard Class, and complimentary tea/coffee and snacks in First Class."

From the following link :
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17812249

"A DfT spokesman said: "Given that it is a subjective matter whether individual passengers prefer buffet cars to trolley catering, the DfT does not specify catering but leaves it to the decision of individual operators."

The above statements dont seem to match....

[paulsouthwales]

I have emailed cross country trains through the email address given on their new website to ask specifically about the Cardiff service, but it bounced back as undeliverable! 

[Lee]

Quotes from the link below.
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17812249

"Trolley services will be "totally inadequate" for passengers on the often busy routes between Penzance and Dundee, said Transport 2000 regional director Dave Redgwell."

"He told the Evening Post that the present cars would have their buffets ripped out and replaced with seating."

"Mr Redgwell said: "These are busy trains, with passengers having to stand at almost any time."

"They are absolutely packed liked sardine cans on Friday nights. A trolley service won't even be able to get through. They should be putting on more carriages, not taking out the buffet cars."

"Mr Redgwell said the watchdog group Travel Watch South West was also very concerned."

"We've spoken to many passengers and they want a proper buffet service, not just a trolley," he said. "We want the Rail Minister Tom Harris to review this decision. There was no mention of the buffet car service being lost when all aspects of the franchise came up for consultation."

Here's another thing I noticed :

From the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) link below :
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/stakeholderbriefingdocumentn1632

In Annex B - Consultation Responses , there is a reply by "General Public" that reads as follows :

"Voyager units should be re-configured to enable more seating by removing 1 or 2 wheelchair size toilets and the buffet car."

It reminds me of the following response by a certain PJ Warry to the Greater Western Franchise Consultation (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2006/repfranre/appendixagreaterwesternfranc1911?page=6#a1005

"Supportive of Westbury-Swindon reductions as services not well used other than peak trains."

That was almost as concerning as the response from Phil Tilley of Wiltshire County Council :

"proposals to improve access to Melksham station are dependant upon provision of a suitable train service."

More info on that issue can be found in the link below.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=268.msg715#msg715

[Timmer]

I don't understand, why was the Cross Country franchise sold to another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)? Virgin were doing a great job, making more calls at W-S-M and others, had very friendly staff, were constantly upgrading the standard of their trains and network, and lowering prices. Why take it off them when their route was progressing so well? I felt the same thing about Wessex. They were building up a good reputation and a very decent service but were taken over by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and now look what's happened. I don't know why the government feels the need to constantly meddle with things that shouldn't be changed.

Also, their route map is wayyy too crowded on the South West routes...not a good start! 

One word - Money.

[simonw]

This is what is wrong with DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and Rail companies

In Annex B - Consultation Responses , there is a reply by "General Public" that reads as follows :

"Voyager units should be re-configured to enable more seating by removing 1 or 2 wheelchair size toilets and the buffet car."


Thats it, pack us in like sardines, why not rip out the seating and make everyone stand. Should be able to increase capacity 50%.

Seriously, why don't they upgrade all Voyagers (2 Power and 2 carriages) to Super Voyagers (2 Power and 3 carriages), and if need be upgrade some more by adding another carriage or two.  If there is a pwer problem add an special power unit in the middle of the train.

How can anyone in their right mind suggest removing disabled toilets and buffet cars on long distance trains? Surely we need more than a bottle of fizz, crisps and chocolate on a 4 hour journey. I'm surprised that anyone can remove toilet provision for disabled people. Surely there is a law against it?

[grahame]

From Lee's links:

Arriva spokeswoman Anne Leva said: "Research has found changing customer preferences, including an increasing reluctance to leave one's seat. This means the traditional on-board buffet or shop is not valued in the same way as it was once.

She added: "For information, only 17 per cent of customers take journeys lasting longer than three hours."

You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, Anne ... but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

1. The reluctance to leave one's seat is not a changing customer preference - it's a growing customer fear that someone else will take over the seat in a crowded train and leave one standing for the rest of a long journey!

2. There are a lot of very short journeys made, I know.   If the split was
        50% up to 1 hour
        22% from 1 to 2 hours
        11% from 2 to 3 hours
        7% from 3 to 4 hours
        5% from 4 to 5 hours
        3% from 5 to 6 hours
        2% over 6 hours
Then of every 100 people on the train at any given time, 47 are on there for 3 or more hours.   Anne's figure is misleading and skewed because she gives equal weight in terms on train use to Mr Brown travelling from Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway as she gives to Mrs Smith making a journey from Torquay to Birmingham

3. If you make everyone get off all the trains at Birmingham and join another train, then of course you'll cut down the average time that people spend on each train

[martyjon]

Arriva spokeswoman Anne Leva said: "Research has found changing customer preferences, including an increasing reluctance to leave one's seat. This means the traditional on-board buffet or shop is not valued in the same way as it was once.


What and absolutely stupid statement for a spokeswoman for the incoming franchise operator to make, she should be hung, drawn and quartered.

Doesnt this stupid woman realise that besides leaving ones seat and having to stand when one returns to find it occupied there is NO FUN in fighting ones way to the buffet car in a can of sardines, and then fighting ones way back to their seat with the risk of spilling a hot beverage over other passengers.

[Lee]

Believe it or not , Stagecoach are removing buffet cars on their East Midland franchise HST^▸ (High Speed Train) services as well (link below.)
http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/midland.php

Quotes :

"What is happening to the present catering facilities?

We plan to remove the buffet cars on the HST's and replace with an at seat trolley service (standard class). We will continue to provide an enhanced catering offer in first class. We also plan to introduce a trolley service on the Meridians and to keep the current level of catering on the regional services.

Will there be a restaurant car on the morning services?

We plan to be able to offer some hot, good quality food for our first class customers."

[Timmer]

One things for sure there are going to be plenty of spare MK3 buffet cars lying around sidings around the country though likely they will eventually end up getting scrapped. It really is becoming a budget airline style railway. Wonder if one day we will see Easyrail appear on the network?

[simonw]

When Arriva take over the CC franchise, will they be able to run tolleys along the carriages?

Yesterday I used Virgin CC from BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) to Taunton and the gap between seats is narrow.

If they do run trolleys along the carriages, there will be a lot of bruised shoulders as the tolleys hit customers.

[vacman]

Personally I feel that Cross Country is a burden on the tax payer, from dec 2008 nearly all services will start/terminate at Birmingham New Street, surely it would make more sense for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to run the services as far as Birmingham (mind you, they need to run what they've got properly first!) and for the services north of Birmingham to be spread between Northern and Traspennine Express. I really don't see how Cross country should be subsidised by the tax payer and yet other franchises pay a premium?