Extend Southern to Salisbury from So'ton

[whole diary]

[devonian]

Does anyone know what will happen at Ashford if they start running more international services? The current station format is 6 platforms off 3 islands. International trains run off the middle island, platforms 3 and 4. The station is next to platform 1 (London bound and Marsh Link) and the CTRL^▸ (Channel Tunnel Rail Link) runs next to platform 6 (Canterbury and Coast).

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), stopping trains have to cross the Maidstone and Canterbury lines. It's already pretty busy as it is so with HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services stopping as well and also crossing paths, is it not going to get a little complicated??? That said, pre-CTRL, there were many more Eurostar running on the domestic lines but I have a feeling that domestic services have increased since then. This is delving into childhood memories so quite possibly wrong 

Why did they build the station in the current configuration? WOuld it not have made sense to have built the international platform next to the CTRL tracks (which were planned when the station was built as compulsory purchase orders had gone out)?

THe amount of work that was done around Ashford to get the CTRL through and the station built is massive. They are still working on it in fact. The town still grows and the European community is also growing. It is also far easier to get to than London for most people in Kent and Sussex. It has massive potential and Eurostar would be stupid to pull out. Stratford, Ashford and Ebbsfleet is overkill. There is nothing at Ebbsfleet anyway - and it is off one of the busiest strtches of the A2/M25. Quite why they put a station there I don't know.

[John R]

Also bear in mind that Stratford International will open soon as well.

When's that happening then for Eurostar services?

I don't think it will be served, maybe only during the Olympics.

That was my point. There's no intention anymore of serving it with Eurostars. So I wasn't sure why BTline thought they would do.

[Btline]

Although it defies logic, ES will not call at Stratford Int during the games. This is to "free up capacity". Passengers will have to change at St Pancras/ ebbedfleet and catch a javelin.

I believe that ES will serve Strat Int when it opens. I agree with others - it is overkill.

It is also mad the way ES have withdrwn so many trains from Ash!

[eightf48544]

Does anyone know what will happen at Ashford if they start running more international services? The current station format is 6 platforms off 3 islands. International trains run off the middle island, platforms 3 and 4. The station is next to platform 1 (London bound and Marsh Link) and the CTRL^▸ (Channel Tunnel Rail Link) runs next to platform 6 (Canterbury and Coast).

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), stopping trains have to cross the Maidstone and Canterbury lines. It's already pretty busy as it is so with HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services stopping as well and also crossing paths, is it not going to get a little complicated??? That said, pre-CTRL, there were many more Eurostar running on the domestic lines but I have a feeling that domestic services have increased since then. This is delving into childhood memories so quite possibly wrong 

Why did they build the station in the current configuration? WOuld it not have made sense to have built the international platform next to the CTRL tracks (which were planned when the station was built as compulsory purchase orders had gone out)?

THe amount of work that was done around Ashford to get the CTRL through and the station built is massive. They are still working on it in fact. The town still grows and the European community is also growing. It is also far easier to get to than London for most people in Kent and Sussex. It has massive potential and Eurostar would be stupid to pull out. Stratford, Ashford and Ebbsfleet is overkill. There is nothing at Ebbsfleet anyway - and it is off one of the busiest strtches of the A2/M25. Quite why they put a station there I don't know.

You need to look at Quail Track plans but I believe that the connections from  HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) to the platforms at Ashford are now served by flyunders/overs to and from HS1. Thus not conflicting with normal SE services.

I believe the ES platform lines are now 25 KV overhead,  as I understand the ES sets have had one of their original eight operating modes disabled namely, third rail operation and their conductor shoes removed. Even though  there may still be connections to the third rail on the flat at Ashfiord ES services could not serve serve Waterloo even if HS1 were to be totally shut.

One of the reasons as I understand it why Eurostar will not serve Sratford duirng the Olympics is the difference in platform heights for the ES sets (continental lower) and Javelins (UK^▸ (United Kingdom) higher) so they are going to put a temporay surface on the ES platforms at Stratford to cater for the Javelins.

Also as BTline says to free up capacity aren't the Javelins going to be every 2 minutes?

What with trying to get 30,000 people a day down a single track road to Dorney Lake I am begining to wish Paris had won the bid.

[Brusselier]

Evening, I've been lurking on here a while now, and also on the 'southeastern' equivalent (The Anglesey Group). As a devonian living in Belgium, and working for a Kent based organisation I can answer a few of the Eurostar/Ashford questions. As I go back and forth between Devon/Kent/Brussels every couple of months

Fly Over/unders only relate to HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) not the 'classic' lines. as the Eurostar sets enter Ashford from the London end of the station they have to cross the down services from Tonbridge going into platforms 5 & 6. On the country end they have to cross down services to Folkestone/Dover from 5 & 6 and up services From Canterbury going into platform(s 1 &) 2. The majority of the Maidstone Services use a chord that avoids having to use the junctions at the london end. Marshlink uses platform 1

Ebbsleet is quite literally a hole, as it is built in an old quarry! It serves as a 'London Parkway' Station. as for there being nothing there, that's intentional, as new development is supposed to miraculously spring up around it. Land Securities have pretty much put this on hold for the mo. thus leaving a gleaming under-utilised station in the middle of a brown field site. Those of us whose local base is in the Ashford area either have to drive to Ebbsflop, or like me, go all the way into london and back again, 2 additional hours on the journey.

Mothballing Ashford: I don't think they'd be brave enough to try. Eurostar really came in for a lot of negative publicity both within and beyond Kent which was very damaging. Their PR^▸ (Public Relations) department has been in overdrive trying to spin it out but the damage was done. One thing that was notable was the District/County/Region/Universities were all united and vocal in their condemnation of Eurostar, not just at the time services were withdrawn, but also since. The reintroduction of a Brussels Service (which is timetabled at 0630 so that it doesn't connect with anything) was labelled as 'a good start but...'. Kent has also joined forces with northern French authorities as they're having the same problems with Eurostar regarding stops at Calais-Fr^thun.

Exeter - Ashford via the coastway I would not use for a single journey, it is too long, there's no point as going via london would be much quicker. I do do Exeter to Ashford occasionally with an overnight/weekend stay at Lewes to see a friend, but I either go via SWT^▸ (South West Trains) to Clapham J or FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to Reading/Redhill. I then use the Marshlink service from Lewes to Ashford. what I would use is an Ashford to Reading Service as this would provide a good route avoiding London. preferably it would be operated by 'Southern'.

Reverting back to the original topic. Rather than Southern extending to Salisbury, perhaps the Cardiff to Portsmouth route, and a suitable amount of 158s be ceded to SWT. after all their hub for DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) is at Salisbury, which is slap bang in the middle of the line. and the ride from Exeter to Salisbury was always nicer than Salisbury to Portsmouth. not done it since the days of Wessex though, but I can't for the life of me imagine it'll have improved!

[Btline]

Thanks Brusseller for your perspective! What is your view on Southeastern's proposed AXING of services next year? (see other thread)

Hopefully Ashford will see more trains re-instated over the next year.

I don't think ES trains have continental door heights. After all, initially, ES ran on BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) tracks all the way into Waterloo. One of the Waterloo platforms is now used by SWT^▸ (South West Trains). (without major mods) The reason why they are not stopping is to free up capacity.

I wonder how many calls ES Stratford Int will get.... (at the cost of Ebbesfleet/Ashford..??)

[Not from Brighton]

I can't see why they don't cut the ES services from Stratford and Ebbsfleet and call at Ashford instead, passengers using Stratford and Ebbsfleet can catch one of the new HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) domestic services to Ashford and then change to Eurostar.

[Brusselier]

Thanks Brusseller for your perspective! What is your view on Southeastern's proposed AXING of services next year? (see other thread)

Pain in the rear, will go in search of that thread!

I don't think ES trains have continental door heights. After all, initially, ES ran on BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) tracks all the way into Waterloo. One of the Waterloo platforms is now used by SWT^▸ (South West Trains). (without major mods) The reason why they are not stopping is to free up capacity.

one of those design querks to meet multiple specs. the bottom of the door is roughly at UK^▸ (United Kingdom) platform height. but there is then a step up into the carriage. For continental platforms there is a retractable step that come out so that people can step up and down. it is not particularly ideal for people with reduced mobility, but then not much is this side of Dover!

I can't see why they don't cut the ES services from Stratford and Ebbsfleet and call at Ashford instead, passengers using Stratford and Ebbsfleet can catch one of the new HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) domestic services to Ashford and then change to Eurostar.

This would be too logical! We've been told the opposite, that we have to get the highspeed service from Ashford to Ebbsfleet to pick up the Eurostar there! so my trip'll be Brussels > Ebbsflop > Ashford > Maidstone East. I'll pass Maidstone Services (M20 J8) 3 times in the same journey!

Brusselier

[Btline]

Perhaps ES will order new stock now the whole route is European loading gauge.

[eightf48544]

Perhaps ES will order new stock now the whole route is European loading gauge.

The problem with that is that the Tunnel regs will have to amended in particular the ability to transfer passengers into one half of the train, split the train  and drive that half out of the tunnel, would have to be repealed. However the H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) guys don't think, even after two the fires, it's an absurb idea. Especially given it takes at least 30 minutes to split a Eurostar. Easier to send in a Thunderbird and drag the set out if necessary evacuating teh passnegers into teh emergency tunnel. There are also I believe fire door requirements between coaches for use in the tunnel but that's not so onerous.

DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) would love to run ICE 3s from Frankfurt to St Pancras. 4 hours station to station?

[Btline]

Hopefully DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) will run some. Although it will be embarrassing/ sad that all the trains at St Pancras will be foreign*. (ESs are pretty much TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse))

Come on, let's have some BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) high speed trains!

*Excluding Javelins - but they aren't High Speed (<155 mph at 140, and only 100 in Kent!).

[tramway]

Hopefully DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) will run some. Although it will be embarrassing/ sad that all the trains at St Pancras will be foreign*. (ESs are pretty much TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse))

Come on, let's have some BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) high speed trains!

*Excluding Javelins - but they aren't High Speed (<155 mph at 140, and only 100 in Kent!).

Now here^s a challenge.

Can anyone name the last ^pure^ UK^▸ (United Kingdom) passenger train/stock/locomotive built in the UK, and has to include wholly UK owned component suppliers.

I would suspect that post 1960^s technology you would struggle to find anything.

HST^▸ (High Speed Train)^s as originally built maybe, and the technology in the APT^▸ (Advanced Passenger Train), after that all major rail manufacturing in the UK became partially if not wholly foreign owned, or components sourced from outside the UK, pretty much like all European industry.

So for the current ^foreign^ trains arriving in to St Pancras remember that Alstom was at one time GEC-Alstom, and that even current major shareholders are quite diverse, and there was quite a bit of UK involvement in their building even if TGV based, and are currently 40% owned by NX.

For the new HST I suspect that Alstom withdrew gracefully due to being both unable to easily convert current production to meet the spec and already had an order book pretty packed. Bombardier were probably persuaded to remain in the race to give some option to judge the Javelin derivative against, with Derby having orders coming out of their ears for the next few years to including the sweeteners of early purchase of 172^s for Portsmouth/Cardiff so I^m unsure how they would have fulfilled an order.

Possibly one of the reasons we will be getting 172^s sooner rather than later, or am I being a little cynical.

[eightf48544]

Weren't the Turbos British built at York by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))?

They pioneered the long continous aluminium welding machines to make the bodies.

I believe on privatisation York went to Brown Boveria (Swiss) later ABB?. I understand the machine was moved to Switzerland (or somewhere in Europe) when York closed due to lack of orders during the 90s.

So another British technology lost!

[tramway]

Quick potted history from Wiki.

In 1989 it was purchased by the Swiss-Swedish conglomerate ABB (ASEA-Brown Boveri) 40% and Trafalgar House 40% and a MEBO (Management-Employee Buy-Out) of 20% forming BREL^▸ (British Rail Engineering Ltd) Ltd. It was latterly bought out by ABB to form ABB Transportation Ltd. This company was itself subsequently merged with Daimler-Benz to form ADtranz (ABB-Daimler Benz Transportation), and even later was bought by the Canadian conglomerate, Bombardier.

The privatisation of British Rail caused a hiatus in the ordering of new rolling stock, which ultimately led to the demise of the York works. Following the closure of the Metro-Cammell (now Alstom) plant in Birmingham in 2005, only the former BREL facility in Derby remains as a major manufacturer of rolling stock in the United Kingdom.

For early DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s developed under BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) I'm not sure of the ownership of Cummins but Voith transmission is certainly German.

[Btline]

The Class 323s was built by Hunslet TPL.

The company then collapsed.

It is such a shame how we, the British - once world leaders, are now tiny in the rail industry.

The start was the APT^▸ (Advanced Passenger Train). Privatisation has killed the remainder.

All those skills lost....