Driver-only operation

[whole diary]

[Btline]

A full HST^▸ (High Speed Train) with goodness knows how many passengers and 1 staff (who is concentrating on driving).

With openable windows and doors as well!

Good job they have to be empty...

[Tim]

Technology Exists for a Jumbo Jet to fly with just ONE Pilot, But Do They?

the analogy is good.  One pilot could manage but for safety reasons a second person is required as backup.  However, this system works on planes without union rules that say that the co-pilot rather than the captain is the only one allowed to say "doors to manual"

[autotank]

Technology Exists for a Jumbo Jet to fly with just ONE Pilot, But Do They?

the analogy is good.  One pilot could manage but for safety reasons a second person is required as backup.  However, this system works on planes without union rules that say that the co-pilot rather than the captain is the only one allowed to say "doors to manual"

I'm not convinced it is a good analogy. If a driver of a train gets sick/dies he just takes his foot off the dead mans and the train stops - no major problem or risk to life. If a 747 pilot goes sick/dies in the middle of the Pacific and he is the only one on board who can fly the thing - BIG problem.

Great post from Tim though - he has summed up the issues well (even if I don't agree with him).

[Tim]

To give the Door control for instance on most line would mean huge amounts of investment things like mirrors, cameras or Screens

surely this does not apply to door opening by the driver?

As well as the fact the Drivers will require a more money for more duties.

This sums up the problem with industrial relatiosn on the railway.  Pay someone more if they have to work longer hours, or do something more difficult, but increasing pay just to press an extra button is stupid.   

[IndustryInsider]

Southern, South Eastern, 165/166 & 180 First Great Western, Chiltern Railways, Virgin West Coast and Cross Country already do have the driver operating the doors in some way. This has not made any improvement to Customer Service, as the Guard still has to close the doors.

Just to clarify - on the Turbo operated routes of Chiltern Railways and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) using 165/6/8's, the driver opens and shuts the doors regardless of whether the train is DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) or 'guard' operated. The 'guard' gives permission for the driver to close the doors and leave the station via the buzzer codes. Therefore, there would need to be no modification to the trains to achieve full DOO on all routes.

With 180's, although the 'guard' closes the doors, the driver opens them (with the permission of the 'guard' via buzzer codes). Again though, there are all the relevant controls in the cab for the driver to open/shut the doors by themselves if they wish to.

HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s have no controls in the cab for the doors. The Central Door Locking system is totally operated by the 'guard'.

I'm not sure about the exact configuration of the other FGW operated units, but it's probably clear that (as usual with the railway), everything is FAR from standardised! 

[Btline]

The advantage of the driver opening the doors is that the train is not delayed if the guard gets stuck issuing a ticket in the middle of the train.

I really can't see any problems with giving drivers "door open" buttons.

[devon_metro]

The advantage of the driver opening the doors is that the train is not delayed if the guard gets stuck issuing a ticket in the middle of the train.

I really can't see any problems with giving drivers "door open" buttons.

It wouldn't be practical on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train). For a start, the CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking) system is not interlocked with the braking system and can effectively be opened whilst the train is moving. But then what happens at a short platform? The CDL system which is essentially a bolt securing a door is not sophisticated enough to have SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) from anywhere other than the panel it is being used for, presumably it is able to switch on the circuits in front/behind as required by the TM^‡(resolve).

[Btline]

I am talking more about trains with frequent stops, like 150s etc.

[The SprinterMeister]

First Great Western units out side of the former Thames area are mostly sprinter type units so are to a standard of sorts. There are door controls in the cabs, but they are non operational. Pacer (or 14x units) does not have door controls in the cabs as far as I can remember. As far as I am aware, there are very few units that are permitted to be DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)). Sprinters and Pacers can not be at the present time.

As the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 15x pass through works for refurbishment they are receiving new drivers instrument / switch panels with the 'Door Release' push buttons omitted. The 142's do not have 'Door Release' buttons on the dashboard at all and the 143's have had these blanked off for some time. The 'Close Doors' controls mounted at various points in the cabs have long since been rendered inoperable or blanked off on all 14x & 15x.

[G.Uard]

I'm not sure about the exact configuration of the other FGW^▸ (First Great Western) operated units, but it's probably clear that (as usual with the railway), everything is FAR from standardised! 

Although there are detail differences in door operation between each class, all the West units, i.e. 143. 150/1. 150/2.  153. 158.  are configured for Driver/Guard working.  Refurbished 143s have had the DKS^▸ (Door Key Switch) switch remounted to be accessible from the 'guards' vestibule and of course, 150/1s have a 'slam' local door.

[gaf71]

The advantage of the driver opening the doors is that the train is not delayed if the guard gets stuck issuing a ticket in the middle of the train.

This shouldn't happen if the guard is doing his/her job properley. i.e. knowing where you are at all times, so you can get to a door control panel, to release the doors.

[dog box]

Technology Exists for a Jumbo Jet to fly with just ONE Pilot, But Do They?

the analogy is good.  One pilot could manage but for safety reasons a second person is required as backup.  However, this system works on planes without union rules that say that the co-pilot rather than the captain is the only one allowed to say "doors to manual"

I'm not convinced it is a good analogy. If a driver of a train gets sick/dies he just takes his foot off the dead mans and the train stops - no major problem or risk to life. If a 747 pilot goes sick/dies in the middle of the Pacific and he is the only one on board who can fly the thing - BIG problem.

Great post from Tim though - he has summed up the issues well (even if I don't agree with him).

So if as you say  DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) driver dies ,gets sick, foot off deadmans, train stops.....No Major problem then? well here you are on the local stopper from Pad to Didcot Its 1800 and you are approaching Stockley Bridge Junction on the down Main and this very thing happens!!...No trained guard oh well i expect Miss@@@@ who is returning home to Maidenhead after going to a job interview in the city carrys a t key about is pts trained, and can remember how to operate the NRN^▸ (National Radio Network) and lay protection from a previous life....Answers on a postcard!!!!

[super tm]

Why the issue with protection.  You time you might need to do that in a train crash not if a train has come to a halt on the main line because the driver is incapacitated.

[autotank]

Technology Exists for a Jumbo Jet to fly with just ONE Pilot, But Do They?

the analogy is good.  One pilot could manage but for safety reasons a second person is required as backup.  However, this system works on planes without union rules that say that the co-pilot rather than the captain is the only one allowed to say "doors to manual"

I'm not convinced it is a good analogy. If a driver of a train gets sick/dies he just takes his foot off the dead mans and the train stops - no major problem or risk to life. If a 747 pilot goes sick/dies in the middle of the Pacific and he is the only one on board who can fly the thing - BIG problem.

Great post from Tim though - he has summed up the issues well (even if I don't agree with him).

So if as you say  DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) driver dies ,gets sick, foot off deadmans, train stops.....No Major problem then? well here you are on the local stopper from Pad to Didcot Its 1800 and you are approaching Stockley Bridge Junction on the down Main and this very thing happens!!...No trained guard oh well i expect Miss@@@@ who is returning home to Maidenhead after going to a job interview in the city carrys a t key about is pts trained, and can remember how to operate the NRN^▸ (National Radio Network) and lay protection from a previous life....Answers on a postcard!!!!

Here is a logical approach to the above situation:

1. Train in section for long time so signaller radios driver - no response. Trains in the area possibly stopped as a precaution (Train is stopped in track circuited area so signals to the rear protect)

2. Signaller sends out an NR^» (Network Rail - home page) response team or something similar to investigate. Possibly another train nearby could be asked to investigate on an adjacent line.

3. NR response team/other train on site probably within an half an hour of train coming to a halt and deal with situation.

Passengers sit in a nice warm turbo for an hour or so and have their tea a bit late. Hardly a risk to anybody, apart from the poor driver who is ill/dead.

Anyway the chance of a Driver keeling over at the controls is very remote so this should alone not be the reason for a Guard onboard.

[Tim]

Anyway the chance of a Driver keeling over at the controls is very remote so this should alone not be the reason for a Guard onboard.

it happened to a bus driver in Bath a month or two ago.  He collapsed at the wheel, and wrote off 6 parked cars before the bus came to a stop.  There were no passengers on board and so although passers-by called an ambulance quickly they had to wait for the fire brigade to arrive first to beeak into the bus and open the door.  (The driver disn't die and is recovering)