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G.Uard
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2009, 18:27:39 » |
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West guards get out onto the platform at every station, close doors when safe and then have to stay by the panel until the train has left the platform. As such, unless we are working on a 150/1, it is impossible to have a head out of the window. However, on arrival at a station, local door is opened first, guard leans out and checks that train is platformed correctly and then doors are released. Well said super TM‡ - drivers are very well paid with excellent conditions and the long suffering passengers shouldn't be expected to also fund high rates for guards where they are no longer required. Technology, and as a result safety, has improved so much in recent years that accidents and are very rare negating the need for an expensive back up man.
Why so bitter? Have you perhaps been passed over for a guard's job autotank?  (Edit) Dog Box posted whilst I was typing this and I have just seen his contribution. Bravo! Sorry but i totally disagree with you autotank you certainly are not in a position to appreciate the working of the railway, just look at what the guard did during the ufton nervet incident, the actions of this individual saved many lives ,and as he is know personally to me i think your opinions are an insult to his professionalism
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« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 18:34:32 by G.Uard »
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devon_metro
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2009, 18:39:05 » |
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However, on arrival at a station, local door is opened first, guard leans out and checks that train is platformed correctly and then doors are released.
I can't say i've seen much evidence of that occuring! |
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Btline
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2009, 18:53:37 » |
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LM▸ don't do that on their 150s.
What's the point? If the guard is at the rear of the train, they know the rear is platformed (the driver will obviously be platformed at the front).
Unfortunately, FTPE» do do this. It can mean that the best part of half a minute can be spent dwelling before doors are released (guard fighting his/her way to the rear, opening local door, getting out to "check", getting back in and releasing all doors)!
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Doctor Gideon Ceefax
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2009, 19:08:14 » |
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Well said super TM‡ - drivers are very well paid with excellent conditions and the long suffering passengers shouldn't be expected to also fund high rates for guards where they are no longer required. Presumably the 'long suffering passenger' would like to see a decrease in fares, with the money saved by the removal of guards? Gatwick Express went D.O.O. once the 73s and coaching stock were removed. I didn't see them cutting the cost of tickets, after laying off all their Senior Conductors. C2C also went D.O.O. Again no decrease in fares with the wage savings. Therefore please do tell in what way D.O.O. benefits the passenger, if it is not in fare decreases? |
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« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 20:03:57 by Doctor Gideon Ceefax »
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2009, 19:57:00 » |
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Well said super TM‡ - drivers are very well paid with excellent conditions and the long suffering passengers shouldn't be expected to also fund high rates for guards where they are no longer required. Technology, and as a result safety, has improved so much in recent years that accidents and are very rare negating the need for an expensive back up man.
The passengers will be suffering more if guards are done away with. Last night a good friend of mine had what sounds like a pretty frightening experience on an FGW▸ DOO▸ service: a group of drunk yobs was tearing up the interior of the unit and behaving threateningly. He said that he was so sure they were about to turn on him that he abandoned ship a stop early and called the police on his mobile. Now, I would never expect a guard to wade in and try and stop a group of drunks destroying a train (staff safety is obviously important too), but I'll wager the driver took that train all the way to its destination oblivious to the chaos behind him. A guard could have liaised with control or a signaller to arrange police assistance to actually deal with the situation and apprehend the miscreants before anyone got attacked or assaulted. |
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autotank
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« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2009, 20:20:34 » |
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Sounds really nasty and my sympathies are with the driver - it can't have been pleasant to be in a situation like that.
However incidents like this should be tackled by increased security on late night services (I believe Borris has just funded more BTP▸ Officers in London which is good news). Security personel could deal with these incidents more effectively than a guard and also wouldn't have to open the doors every 5 minutes!
BTW▸ I haven't been turned down for a Guards job (I've never applied for a job on the railway) and I do have a very good understanding of railway operations - I'm a driver on a heritage railway.
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dog box
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« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2009, 20:30:01 » |
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Not wanting to to be rude mate ..but experience gained within a heritage railway environment is poles apart from working on the national rail network especially in a safety critical position { and before any one asks i do both}
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All postings reflect my own personal views and opinions and are not intended to be, nor should be taken as official statements of first great western or first group policy
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devon_metro
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« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2009, 20:41:17 » |
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As a passenger, guards are able to give me journey information, are able to answer queries regarding the train, can sell tickets and provide increased re-assurance at night.
On the other hand, the off chance that a security bloke will be on board. If I wanted an unusual combination of tickets I can't buy this from a ticket machine and so will end up paying more.
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autotank
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« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2009, 20:56:42 » |
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Not wanting to to be rude mate ..but experience gained within a heritage railway environment is poles apart from working on the national rail network especially in a safety critical position { and before any one asks i do both}
They are poles apart - I don't get paid and I actually enjoy my duties Before you get stuck in - I have worked very hard in my own time for around 10 years to get passed out. We work to a lot of the rules you do on the 'big' railway - after all we are carrying members of the public on timetabled services. |
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G.Uard
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« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2009, 21:00:34 » |
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LM▸ don't do that on their 150s.
What's the point? If the guard is at the rear of the train, they know the rear is platformed (the driver will obviously be platformed at the front).
Unfortunately, FTPE» do do this. It can mean that the best part of half a minute can be spent dwelling before doors are released (guard fighting his/her way to the rear, opening local door, getting out to "check", getting back in and releasing all doors)!
And what happens with greasy/slippery rails? There is no guarantee of a train being platformed correctly 100% of the time, no matter how skilful the driver. |
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Doctor Gideon Ceefax
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« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2009, 21:02:34 » |
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This is all very well but does not change the fact that a guard is no longer required and DOO▸ has been accepted as safe.
What about great heck accident both the driver and guard were killed. Should we have a third member of staff on board? Or a fourth or fifth.
The guard does not do anything that a driver could do on a DOO train. With HST▸ a guard is currently needed for the doors but apart from that they are not required.
Both driver and guard were killed, but one of the freight drivers survived. And should we have a third member of staff on board, well perhaps if all railway staff of all grades were taught how to contact the signaller from a trackside phone, and recognise mileposts or overhead line structures, in order to at least give some identification as to where they are, I can't see that being a bad thing. Indeed by that logic, you may as well have completely automated trains with no drivers, after all the driver may get killed, then what? The Docklands light railway has been proven to be safe... As for guards doing nothing but doors on HST's, I'd hate to think what would happen if this really was the case, having to wait for the driver to reset passcoms, fix door faults, stop the train to answer the call for aid and whatnot... |
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Btline
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« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2009, 21:04:47 » |
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But my point is that the driver can SEE if the front of the train is platformed.
And the guard can SEE if the rear is platformed.
So there is no need for the guard to extend dwells by looking out first.
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Doctor Gideon Ceefax
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2009, 21:09:16 » |
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But my point is that the driver can SEE if the front of the train is platformed.
And the guard can SEE if the rear is platformed.
So there is no need for the guard to extend dwells by looking out first.
Assuming the guard is opening the doors from the rear... |
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2009, 21:24:11 » |
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Just a couple of observations from me, if I may - purely as a commuter passenger, not as a member of staff (current or past)! People are sensible and move away from the doors when alighting so it should be possible to see if somebody is stuck. Sorry, autotank, but I disagree: I'm often dismayed at how close some people stand to trains as they arrive or depart: quite often, passengers intending to board cram up so close that alighting passengers have to elbow them out of the way as they step down on to the platform! And even passengers for a following sevice remain standing there on the platform edge, waiting for that following service, just to be 'front of the queue'!  West guards get out onto the platform at every station, close doors when safe and then have to stay by the panel until the train has left the platform. As such, unless we are working on a 150/1, it is impossible to have a head out of the window. However, on arrival at a station, local door is opened first, guard leans out and checks that train is platformed correctly and then doors are released.
To be fair, I do see this happening every morning at Nailsea and the intermediate stations on my commute into Bristol - and I'm impressed with the guard's professionalism. (I'm sure it happens on the evening return journey, too - but those trains are too crammed for me observe what's happening on the platform!) And finally - in the case of an incident affecting one end of the train or the other, the staff remote from the incident would be able to deal with it, whatever the fate of the staff at the other end. I think the Great Heck incident is very unusual in that both staff were killed: as is more likely, in such tragic cases as Ufton Nervet, there would be at least one surviving member of staff to deal with the aftermath. |
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William Huskisson MP▸ was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830. Many more have died in the same way since then. Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.
"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner." Discuss.
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super tm
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« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2009, 21:26:02 » |
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] to stay by the panel until the train has left the platform.
No they do not. That requirement was removed from the rule book about 3 years ago. That was to bring it in line with DOO▸ where the driver is not required / able to keep a look out after the train has left the platform |
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