Driver-only operation

[whole diary]

[tramway]

Technology Exists for a Jumbo Jet to fly with just ONE Pilot, But Do They?

the analogy is good.  One pilot could manage but for safety reasons a second person is required as backup.  However, this system works on planes without union rules that say that the co-pilot rather than the captain is the only one allowed to say "doors to manual"

I'm not convinced it is a good analogy. If a driver of a train gets sick/dies he just takes his foot off the dead mans and the train stops - no major problem or risk to life. If a 747 pilot goes sick/dies in the middle of the Pacific and he is the only one on board who can fly the thing - BIG problem.

Great post from Tim though - he has summed up the issues well (even if I don't agree with him).

Modern aircraft technically require no-one on the flight deck, and haven't done for many years, and Jeremy Clarksons programme was testimony to this, nothing against those drivers posting here but I would rather there was no-one in the cab.

Just let me get on the train with a decent buffet/restaraunt service and I'll be happy.

(shall I duck?)

[Chris from Nailsea]

(shall I duck?)

Yes, I think perhaps you'd better! 

My personal view (just as a passenger, no past or present connection with the railways ):

I like the idea that there's a qualified driver up front, able to deal with anything that happens; I also like the presence of a conductor to keep an eye on the rest of the train - open / close doors safely, sell tickets, deal with anything that happens.

Just having those two professional staff, with up to 200 passengers on our three-car 158s between Nailsea and BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)), is a reassuring feature of my daily commute, actually!

[Btline]

The advantage of the driver opening the doors is that the train is not delayed if the guard gets stuck issuing a ticket in the middle of the train.

This shouldn't happen if the guard is doing his/her job properley. i.e. knowing where you are at all times, so you can get to a door control panel, to release the doors.

Your right.... but it does in my experience - certain guards who ALWAYS delay the train at each stop.

[Btline]

My experiences take place on 150s, where the panels are at either end of the train (and 1/3 of the way down in the central cab - but using these door opening controls wastes more time, as the guard has to enter the locked out cab and activate the door controls before (s)he can use them)!

[Btline]

I agree - infortuntley, there are a few that don't do it properly and delay the train as a result.

By the way, the "all stoppers" run from Stratford / Shirley to Stourbridge.

[Btline]

Yes, that should help (if they ever arrive!).

[dog box]

Why the issue with protection.  You time you might need to do that in a train crash not if a train has come to a halt on the main line because the driver is incapacitated.

Well i suggest you take a look at GE/RT/8000/M2... where the section on assistance protection is explained. and as we are talking an incapacitated Driver it would fall to the Guard to undertake this duty

[Don]

Why the issue with protection.  You time you might need to do that in a train crash not if a train has come to a halt on the main line because the driver is incapacitated.

Well i suggest you take a look at GE/RT/8000/M2... where the section on assistance protection is explained. and as we are talking an incapacitated Driver it would fall to the Guard to undertake this duty

Assistance protection is to stop the train being hit by an assisting train.  The scenario is that a train has come to a stand because of a sick driver.  No protection required other than the existing signals.  Eventually someone would come to see if the driver is ok, probably a passing train. After that you will have staff, to lay assistance protection. Oh and a huge delay and, due to the wait for medical help, and perhaps a dead driver.

[G.Uard]

ARRIVA Trains Wales and First Great Western Class 150 units have been modified to have a door control panel on the first set of doors after the gangway. This could be done to the 2 or 3 car London Midland units. I^ve seen Guards that are fast enough to work the London Midland units even when there on all station stoppers from Dorridge to Stourbridge. Like a gentleman has pointed out, if the Guard is doing there job properly then there should be no delay. (With exception to unforeseen events)

With crush loading, it can be difficult to get back to a door position, even those on the intermediate panels. It is difficult to know from what perspective a commentator can decide whether or not a guard, "is doing their job properly", but I would suggest that in this particular case, only remarks by those who have actual experience are valid.

[gaf71]

Why the issue with protection.  You time you might need to do that in a train crash not if a train has come to a halt on the main line because the driver is incapacitated.

Well i suggest you take a look at GE/RT/8000/M2... where the section on assistance protection is explained. and as we are talking an incapacitated Driver it would fall to the Guard to undertake this duty

Assistance protection is to stop the train being hit by an assisting train.  The scenario is that a train has come to a stand because of a sick driver.  No protection required other than the existing signals.  Eventually someone would come to see if the driver is ok, probably a passing train. After that you will have staff, to lay assistance protection. Oh and a huge delay and, due to the wait for medical help, and perhaps a dead driver.

That's all well and good if the train has failed in a track circuited section. In a section controlled by token, staff, etc, assistance protection would need to put down.

[super tm]

Why the issue with protection.  You time you might need to do that in a train crash not if a train has come to a halt on the main line because the driver is incapacitated.

Well i suggest you take a look at GE/RT/8000/M2... where the section on assistance protection is explained. and as we are talking an incapacitated Driver it would fall to the Guard to undertake this duty

Assistance protection is to stop the train being hit by an assisting train.  The scenario is that a train has come to a stand because of a sick driver.  No protection required other than the existing signals.  Eventually someone would come to see if the driver is ok, probably a passing train. After that you will have staff, to lay assistance protection. Oh and a huge delay and, due to the wait for medical help, and perhaps a dead driver.

That's all well and good if the train has failed in a track circuited section. In a section controlled by token, staff, etc, assistance protection would need to put down.

Guards are still needed it on the worcester route for that reason..  But in Doo areas this will not apply.

[Btline]

Funnily enough, I read an article today about how Tube drivers now make an announcement to the passengers if a door opens, for them to slide it shut.

The reason? One reason is to prevent delays. The other reason is so the driver does not have to force his/her way through the train (esp during rush hours)!

[IndustryInsider]

Why the issue with protection.  You time you might need to do that in a train crash not if a train has come to a halt on the main line because the driver is incapacitated.

Well i suggest you take a look at GE/RT/8000/M2... where the section on assistance protection is explained. and as we are talking an incapacitated Driver it would fall to the Guard to undertake this duty

Assistance protection is to stop the train being hit by an assisting train.  The scenario is that a train has come to a stand because of a sick driver.  No protection required other than the existing signals.  Eventually someone would come to see if the driver is ok, probably a passing train. After that you will have staff, to lay assistance protection. Oh and a huge delay and, due to the wait for medical help, and perhaps a dead driver.

That's all well and good if the train has failed in a track circuited section. In a section controlled by token, staff, etc, assistance protection would need to put down.

Guards are still needed it on the worcester route for that reason..  But in Doo areas this will not apply.

Trains can run empty on the Cotswold Line with nobody on board except the driver. Concerns were raised about the above scenario, but rules have been stretched/bended to allow it with agreement of the unions.

[coachflyer]

DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) comes in two forms

DOO(P) Driver Only Operation Passenger

DOO Driver Only Operation

In DOO(P) the line must be cleared as suitable with driver aids provided at stations where required and CSR^▸ (Cab Secure Radio) radio fitted to allow the driver to talk directly to the signaller from the train. Additionally if the drivers Safety Divice (dead mans handle) is activated an automatic emergancy call is placed via the radio to the signaller. Also the signaller is able to use the PA^▸ (Public Address) system on the train to talk to the passengers.

DOO can be operated by any train but with no passengers on board. The signaller must be advised of this.

Hope this clears up some confusion

[Network SouthEast]

Hello everyone.

Interesting thread. I have been lurking here for a bit, but felt the need to share a few thoughts - most have been said already. I used to be a guard for Southern. Basically, on the Southern network DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))(P) services were limited to London suburban routes and some Brighton mainline trains. Everywhere else had guarded passenger services.

The guard has a vital safety role to prevent emergencies and deal with them as they occur. They look out for the safety of passengers. They provide information and assistance to passengers.

Some of the criticisms against guards is that they spend all day in the back cab. On Southern, we had to work 319, 455 and 456 units from the rear cab because there were no other door controls on those units to use, further more the rulebook prohibits the use of the front cab for the guard to do train dispatch! It is the poor design of the units, that makes it difficult for some to do their job.

I had to laugh at comments about door vestibules being too crowded for a guard to get on. It's true it does happen (especially if there is no external door to the cab). Have you thought for a moment though what would happen if the train driver needed to contact the signaller from a signal post telephone in the same circumstances? With no external cab door, does one suggest they climb out of the cab window? Hardly an argument for driverless trains, but one for better train design and strengthening of services.

The benefit of a guard on the dispatch procedure is that one can step away from the train and really get a good view of the platform. As good as DOO monitors and mirrors are, they don't show the whole story. On Southern, policy was for driver to release doors, in fact on 377s guards didn't even have a pair of release buttons! I can see the argument for and against, personally it never bothered me. There were incidents of drivers releasing doors wrong side, or with the train stopped in the wrong part of a platform, or at a station that wasn't going to be called at. All it meant for me was that they took the flack, not me.

The guard dispatching at stations also meant that where they were unstaffed, there could be a second pair of eyes checking the signal if there was one, to prevent a SPAD^▸ (Signal Passed At Danger). Because the guard had a good view of the train and platform, they are able to assist disabled, elderly people etc... board and alight - now that doesn't happen on any DOO(P) trains does it?

Passcom activation - on DOO(P), the driver is supposed to proceed to the next station before stopping to deal with whatever the problem is. For some routes that could be quite a distance. The guard is able to attend to the problem straight away.

Some people have said that guards should be relieved of door control duties because of getting stuck inside busy trains. Any half-decent guard knows when they need to return to their door controls (and they know where the nearest panel is too). On any of the busy services I did they were either so rammed that doing tickets was pointless, or there would be a steady stream of people constantly walking up to you at wherever you dispatched the train from last. Therefore you had enough tickets to issue, queries to resolve without needing to walk through.


So I may be a bit biased, but to coin a phrase the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) used to use in the old days, "Let the guard guard, and drivers drive!"