NEW HEATHROW HUB

[whole diary]

[stebbo]

Just reading the latest reports in Sunday papers about the government planning a new Heathrow rail hub as part of the third runway project. Apparently the thinking is to divert the GW^▸ (Great Western) mainline through the new hub in order to create new high speed line to the north (via Reading and Oxford, I believe).

Presumably, if it comes off, this makes it inevitable we'll see electrification to Bristol, South Wales and the West as well.

But what happens to the current route through Slough - and shouldn't someone have thought of this pre-Crossrail?

Any news/thoughts/ideas?

[devon_metro]

New high speed rail link to accompany the third runway?

Why not just throw all of your money away Mr Brown (oh wait - already done that!!!)

Isn't the idea of the High Speed line to reduce domestic flights thus freeing up runway space. Call me no expert but it just seems like the government out for votes!

[stebbo]

Although from the point of view of an integrated transport system, the Heathrow hub might make sense without a third runway.........

[Electric train]

There is one big problem in the Thames Valley and that's land that is free from habitation to build the new railway on, a tunnel would be fun as a lot of the Thames Valley basin is sand and gravel glacial out wash. Oh and of course all of us NIBY's and our local MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) Theresa May that live in the Thames Valley who are apposed the a 3rd runway and the building of a new high speed railway that will have no benefit to us would be opposed,


Oh I forgot could always dig up the M4 and convert that to a railway

[willc]

A long overdue move. Not everyone using Heathrow wants to go into London, though it should of course be a rail link and no third runway, but the rail link is clearly going to be a sop to try to excuse approving the runway.

While running via Reading and Oxford might be a short-term solution, it's already very busy all the way up to Leamington, so high-speed just isn't an option here.

Any future high-speed line to the north is likely to go up the M40/Chiltern Line corridor. Oxford might be served by a branch, as suggested by Greengauge21, which has drawn up proposals for an HSL. See http://www.greengauge21.net/ and click downloads for their report.

DafT indicated to The Guardian last week - the Heathrow idea first ran in the Sunday Times a week ago in an interview with Lord Adonis - that GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification would be an inevitable outcome of such a development.

Adonis was picking up on a proposal from consultants Arup that they came up with last spring. The station site they suggest is said to be three kilometres north of T5, which puts its somewhere in the vicinity of the M4/M25 interchange - and not anywhere near any of the existing terminals, so not sure how handy it might actually be.

And even if GWML expresses all run via an airport loop, the main line would still be needed for local passenger trains and freight, which aren't the kind of things you want cluttering up a shiny airport station. Not everything Crossrail runs will go via Heathrow. Not much use making a call there with a full and standing evening peak service from the city heading west - though the airport would make a better turnback point for all the services from the east that are meant to end at Paddington under the current scheme.

[simonw]

Hi

I've said it before, high speed is not needed, HIGH CAPACITY is.

Saving a few minutes of a 100 or 200 minute journey is not as important as ensuring every can get a seat on said journey. The only route in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) which arguably justify this is London to Inverness/Aberdeen, and I'm not sure the demand justifies it.

[Electric train]

I agree with simonw it is high capacity that is need in and out of Heathrow

The west side of Hearthow is easy to achieve by building a line off of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) between Iver and West Drayton into Heathrow, this could merge in with the planned line from Staines into the airport, to provide services to the South Wales, the West of England Oxford etc.

It is the heading north to the midlands and NW that is more difficult to achieve the GWML even with the rebuild of Reading will be at capacity.  To reach the NW and midlands a new line between Iver and West Drayton possibly following the M25 to pick up the Chiltern line the Chiltern Line would need up grading to achieve faster running but was originally built as a high speed route 100 years ago, once the trains get close to Princes Risborough a new HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) route could the link across to the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) at Rugby.  Another possible route would be to run the trains from Heathrow east toward London and the use the Populars and run round the north London line to St Panc and Euston and even run north up the WCML ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about)

[Btline]

What a waste of money. <disbelief smiley>

Why not just add a spur from the current airport line to the westbound GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line).

Then extend all XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services which currently terminate at Reading to Heathrow.*

Done - and millions saved.

(and scrap the runway)

[Electric train]

Then extend all XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services which currently terminate at Reading to Heathrow.*

Can not run diesel hauled trains into Heathrow the design and safety case for the Heathrow branch tunnels is for electric traction only.

[bemmy]

If the non-London airports had a more sensible proportion of the international flights, you wouldn't need so much road and rail capacity for people travelling between Heathrow and places over 100 miles away. It seems to me that if the government are supporting this proposal, they are siding with Heathrow Airport's commercial objective to increase their market share at the expense of regional airports.

[Btline]

Then extend all XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services which currently terminate at Reading to Heathrow.*

Can not run diesel hauled trains into Heathrow the design and safety case for the Heathrow branch tunnels is for electric traction only.

Should have known that H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) would prevent such an excellent and cheap solution!

However, a perfect excuse to electrify the XC lines!

[John R]

No fans to extract diesel fumes. So short sighted design.

But yes, would be another good reason to electrify to Reading and beyond.

[Lee]

Here is one of the articles that stebbo may have been referring to (link below.)
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article5488942.ece

There is some doubt as to whether the third runway will ever be built (link below.)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/heathrows-third-runway-to-fall-foul-of-eu-rules-1299667.html

[Electric train]

No fans to extract diesel fumes. So short sighted design.

It's not so much a question of fumes, more to do with the fire risk of the fuel, hot engines etc it was not a railway (BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))) decision but more to do with the post KX fire regulations

But yes, would be another good reason to electrify to Reading and beyond.

There is currently a project going on looking at the feasibility of triple power stock  that is ac and dc electric traction and to have a diesel engines as well specifically for XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services, principally being driven by the desire to reduce the use diesel fuel

[Btline]

The article seems to imply that the line will be an extension of the CTRL^▸ (Channel Tunnel Rail Link).

Oh dear,  a high speed line running North from the exit tracks at St Pancras, turning West to Heathrow, then North to B'ham.

This is going to be messy.....