Southeastern raises the axe

[whole diary]

[bemmy]

Can anyone tell me if any of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s have ever posted an annual loss? All I ever hear about is profits, even in years where the operator in question has provided an abysmal service which can't even be blamed on the likes of Network Rail or God.

I think parent companies have (Sea Containers), but in practise the train operating end is protected by "Cap and Collar" arrangements:

http://www.canber.co.uk/?q=node/32

So not only is it absolutely impossible for a TOC to lose money, it's also impossible for them to make a decent profit. Running a franchise is only about ticking the necessary boxes to win future franchises, and protecting your tiny margin to pass onto the shareholders. But wasn't privatisation about the prospect of increased profit encouraging better services? Take that away and exactly what benefit is it supposed to bring??? If there's another theoretical justification then I'm afraid nearly 30 years of propaganda has failed to lodge it in my brain.

it provides the TOC with an element of protection against changing world conditions that they had no way of forecasting at the time the bid was made

So TOC's are like banks then -- too important to suffer the consequences of their mistakes and misjudgements like the rest of us.  However, at least the government has bought a stake in the failing banks, whereas a failing TOC and its shareholders get to keep the subsidy.

Of course, I can see the downside of the letting a TOC go bust: the government would have no option but to take over running the franchise itself, which would be nationalisation, and might support the arguments of all those old skool socialists and liberals who still can't understand why privatisation is automatically the best possible solution to everything. And it's more important to marginalise your political opponents than to have decent public services.

As for the Javelins, they are a "flagship" project. They will be fast, they will probably look nice, and they will be the railway equivalent of the empty community centre on the edge of a deprived estate -- built to look good in a photocall with this week's Minister, and to impress people who don't need to use them. Meanwhile 99.9% of rush hour commuters are packed in like sardines in 40 year old carriages on slow unreliable lines.

[Lee]

Of course, I can see the downside of the letting a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) go bust: the government would have no option but to take over running the franchise itself, which would be nationalisation, and might support the arguments of all those old skool socialists and liberals who still can't understand why privatisation is automatically the best possible solution to everything. And it's more important to marginalise your political opponents than to have decent public services.

The classic example of when action of this nature was taken is, ironically, Connex Southeastern (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3024804.stm

But the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) said it was the overall financial management of the franchise, rather than its "operational competence", which was causing concern.

The SRA gave Connex ^58m of public money last December to keep the company running, on the proviso that it improved its financial performance.

But the operator recently requested another ^200m in subsidy.

"This is not a question of the operational competence of Connex, but there has been a serious loss of confidence that we have in the ability of the company to run the business in its widest sense," SRA chairman Richard Bowker told the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page).

"We set Connex some very serious and very tough targets last year. They have not met those and we decided to take some very firm and decisive action."

Issues related to this discussion will undoubtably be raised at a meeting between Geoff Hoon and the CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer)'s on January 20 (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3613.msg33274#msg33274

[Zoe]

Of course, I can see the downside of the letting a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) go bust: the government would have no option but to take over running the franchise itself, which would be nationalisation, and might support the arguments of all those old skool socialists and liberals who still can't understand why privatisation is automatically the best possible solution to everything. And it's more important to marginalise your political opponents than to have decent public services.

The government did not do this in the case of the Intercity East Coast franchise.  GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) continued to run it on a management contract until the government re-let the franchise.

[Btline]

As for the Javelins, they are a "flagship" project. They will be fast, they will probably look nice, and they will be the railway equivalent of the empty community centre on the edge of a deprived estate -- built to look good in a photocall with this week's Minister, and to impress people who don't need to use them. Meanwhile 99.9% of rush hour commuters are packed in like sardines in 40 year old carriages on slow unreliable lines.

Unfortunately, the Javelins will be running mostly on the unreliable lines too!

The SE stock is pretty modern (most is Electrostars i.e. 2000s).

And for most people THEY WON^▸ (Weekly Operating Notice )'T BE FASTER.

[Lee]

Passenger Focus speak out against Southeastern fare rises (link below.)
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Campaign-gathers-steam-to-tackle-train-fare-hikes-newsinkent19599.aspx

[grahame]

Passenger Focus speak out against Southeastern fare rises (link below.)
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Campaign-gathers-steam-to-tackle-train-fare-hikes-newsinkent19599.aspx

An East Malling to London Anytime Single costs 13.90 (current figure). Distance is 35 miles - so that's 40p per mile in comparison to the 68p per mile Bath to Paddington (and some fares even higher) that we found in the South West:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4141.0

But please note - I chose East Malling more or less at random - a station right in the middle of Kent with a whole series of commuter trains each morning into London and an hourly service through the day.  Ticket sales of around 100,000 per annum. So there MIGHT be other Kentish trips up to the same 68p or even 91p figures.

[Btline]

Passenger Focus speak out against Southeastern fare rises (link below.)
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Campaign-gathers-steam-to-tackle-train-fare-hikes-newsinkent19599.aspx

Once again, SE are justifying the sky high rises this year on the Javelins! I wonder if the stations in question in the article are to have service cuts?

[Timmer]

Passenger Focus speak out against Southeastern fare rises (link below.)
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Campaign-gathers-steam-to-tackle-train-fare-hikes-newsinkent19599.aspx

Another article pointing out that people will begin to desert the railways and return to their cars as the cost of petrol falls. One really begins to wonder if this was a rail fare rise too far in terms of how much fares went up percentage wise at such a sensitive time where cost means a lot more than it used to. With an election looming in the next year and a half you can sure as bet the government wont be raising car tax either!

[Lee]

But please note - I chose East Malling more or less at random - a station right in the middle of Kent with a whole series of commuter trains each morning into London and an hourly service through the day.  Ticket sales of around 100,000 per annum. So there MIGHT be other Kentish trips up to the same 68p or even 91p figures.

That's around 100,000 per annum, but no off-peak service shown from December 2009....

[Btline]

But please note - I chose East Malling more or less at random - a station right in the middle of Kent with a whole series of commuter trains each morning into London and an hourly service through the day.  Ticket sales of around 100,000 per annum. So there MIGHT be other Kentish trips up to the same 68p or even 91p figures.

That's around 100,000 per annum, but no off-peak service shown from December 2009....

They are paying this year to have their daytime trains scrapped!

[Lee]

MP^▸ (Member of Parliament)'s attack fare rises on Southeastern in the Commons (link below.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1125061/Commuter-MPs-attack-rail-fare-price-hikes-stealth-tax.html?ITO=1490

[devon_metro]

HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) is well worth the money. Eurostar has seen passenger numbers rise by 10+%. St Pancras is better located for the north of England which is a potentially massive market, meanwhile the South still has Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Its also worth noting that Eurostar will stop at Stratford for London 2012.

[bemmy]

As well as the links to the Midlands and North, I believe St Pancras is considered a better location for central London than Waterloo.

[Btline]

HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) is well worth the money. Eurostar has seen passenger numbers rise by 10+%. St Pancras is better located for the north of England which is a potentially massive market, meanwhile the South still has Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Its also worth noting that Eurostar will stop at Stratford for London 2012.

Eurostar won't stop at Stratford (for some reason).

Passengers will have to change onto a "Javelin" service to access the games.

As well as the links to the Midlands and North, I believe St Pancras is considered a better location for central London than Waterloo.

Debatable.

Both are the same time to The City.

Waterloo is nearer Westminster and the West End.

[Btline]

Eurostar is a LOT less hassle than flying. It is less stressful, and a lot more pleasant than flying. It is still quicker for many people. And if it was extended to B'ham, it would definitely be quicker to take the train (3 hrs to centre of Paris).

St Pancras International is linked to St Pancras and Kings Cross domestic stations. It is very near Euston (for WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line)).

It is also linked to 7 tube lines & Thameslink and will be one stop sway from Crossrail (Farringdon).

So there is no better place. Also:

Trains do not clog up the South London suburban lines.

Waterloo has more space (one platform already converted, others might be in future if they re-do all the tracks out of Waterloo).

It is European loading gauge all the way.

What other reasons do you want?