Mini Buffets

[whole diary]

[willc]

Presumably what we're talking about will be something like the NXEA^▸ (National Express East Anglia) Mk3 TSOB conversions built for the Norwich-London trains that didn't have restaurant cars - until the recent cuts. Details below swiped from an InterCity Railway Society newsletter from 2006. There's a pic as well if you scroll down to Page 23, at ]http://www.icrs.org.uk/Site/Members%20Area/Magazine/July%202006.pdf] but it just shows the blanked-off bit of bodywork at the back of the buffet area

First of TSOB^s Arrive For ONE Anglia.
The seating compartment is the same finish as the refurbished Mark 3a TSO^▸ (The Stationary Office (now OPSI)), which are already in use. Conversion has taken place at Bombardier^s Derby works where the other Mark 3^s have been refurbished. Three windows worth of seats (about eight rows) and a toilet have been removed and in their place a counter complete with microwave oven, refrigerator and plenty of shelving. A PA^▸ (Public Address) transmitter has also been fitted for the buffet crew to make announcements. There is also a thin shelf been fitted to the wall at window height opposite the bar for standing passengers and handrails fitted at the same height extending along the opposite wall the length of the counter area and around the counter These are picked out in a bright yellow.

[thetrout]

Yep, 7 coach sets, 2 first and 5 standard with a chunk (not half) taken out of one for the micro-buffet.

All the refurbed buffets will stay, it's the unrefurbed ones which are still around which will go (hence my comment about having a last nostalgic ride on an old style one if you can.)

At weekends yes of course it's leisure travellers on advance tickets or weekend first upgrades, but during the week 1st class is busy in and out of London. Though I would admit that on Friday my morning service from Nailsea to Swindon was a coach short in 1st, yet we all squeezed in somehow, though I nearly had to share my table with someone. So I don't think cutting from 2.5 to 2 coaches will be the end of the world for 1st. 

Fair Enough. I don't normally go to London with FGW^▸ (First Great Western). I commute to work on the 7:15 Taunton - Bath Spa Service which in First Class is either empty or moderately busy, even then, the bulk of passengers get on at Bristol Temple Meads. I've only ever had to share my table with someone once. Despite loads of empty tables being available, but thats a different story altogether

Your right about XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) being busy in First Class. It's normally either empty or packed. What does annoy me though is when I buy a walk up First Class ticket to visit my Parents and I normally go back on a Sunday and all the standard class passengers sit in First Class and the ticket inspectors do nothing about it. Fair enough there is no seats and I can sympathise. But i've paid full walk up price and don't have a seat because the train managers have allowed to many people to upgrade

But back onto topic. I think that mini buffets would be a good idea in principle because they would reduce the weight and allow HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s better acceleration. But will probably cause more long term problems that perhaps people realise. Maybe adding an extra standard class carriage or as I said before a composite carriage. Or bring back LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock). I've seen plenty of FGW Fag Packet liviered stock floating around the rail network

[willc]

East customer panel minutes contain an update on progress with the mini-buffet cars. First one of the 18 is at Derby for conversion and due back in May, with 14 seats lost, but all 2+7 sets will have the toilet in coach A reinstated for passenger use.

Eight more existing buffet cars are to be refreshed to match the rest of the fleet and all HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) will have a buffet car of some sort "from late 2009".

[Kingfisherdart]

I've thought about the capacity issue for some time.

Why doesn't FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do what Virgin did, and turn the buffet cars around, so the half coach of First class seating can instead be used as a half coach of standard class seating?

If you look in buffet cars, there are no reading lamps in the first class area - where the vehicles were previously used as standard class.

Surely the above solution would create more standard class seating (allowing for more tables lol), not significantly reduce first class accommodation, and retain a full buffet service?

Bit late now tho...

[Btline]

I've thought about the capacity issue for some time.

Why doesn't FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do what Virgin did, and turn the buffet cars around, so the half coach of First class seating can instead be used as a half coach of standard class seating?

If you look in buffet cars, there are no reading lamps in the first class area - where the vehicles were previously used as standard class.

Surely the above solution would create more standard class seating (allowing for more tables lol), not significantly reduce first class accommodation, and retain a full buffet service?

Bit late now tho...

That would be a sensible option. But FGW have decided again the best option.

How long before a mini buffet 2+7 ends up on a Friday evening Cornwall service (Pullman)? Very silly....

[Kingfisherdart]

Well quite ... within the first fortnight?!

Of course they won't use mini-buffets on that route! Just like the 142s were never going to go west of Newton Abbot...

[Not from Brighton]

Anyone know how much faster the 7+2s will be?  Is it likely to be something passengers will notice?
Also I hope there's still room to loiter at the bar.  If it's standing room only, might as well prop up the bar and have a beer...

[plymothian]

I've thought about the capacity issue for some time.

Why doesn't FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do what Virgin did, and turn the buffet cars around, so the half coach of First class seating can instead be used as a half coach of standard class seating?

If you look in buffet cars, there are no reading lamps in the first class area - where the vehicles were previously used as standard class.

Surely the above solution would create more standard class seating (allowing for more tables lol), not significantly reduce first class accommodation, and retain a full buffet service?

Bit late now tho...

Is it not physically hard to turn a carriage around?  something to do with the couplings?

[devon_metro]

The likelyhood of a mini buffet on the 1803/1903 from Paddington is very unlikely. Sets at paddington can easily be stepped up.

Remember, the buffet is designed to face standard class and the narrow alley would be a nightmare along with the fact that there are a number of services where First class is full.

[Kingfisherdart]

Hmm yes i see your point.

Possibly the reason the standard buffets were altered to first buffets? Hence the lack of reading lights.

I do see the fact that when a queue forms from standard class at the buffet, that large open area is very useful.

How could GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) insert  a ninth vehicle into its sets to help capacity, while FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seems to need to remove a carriage? Does speeded up timings really justify such a move?

[willc]

It wasn't Virgin that came up with having standard class seating in buffet car. The CrossCounty fleet of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were always like that from the day they were delivered to BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)), formed 2+7 with one first open. The standard class seating areas in the buffet coaches was normally placed at the first class end of the coach on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) sets.

And I have a book with a picture of a 2+8 set HST leaving Moreton-in-Marsh in 1988 formed with a buffet with standard seating, which has the kitchen/counter area at the first class end - quite a few Western Region sets ran like this for much of their early life, until the BR InterCity sector converted the seats to first class.

A mini-buffet set is highly unlikely to ever go west of Bristol under normal circumstances (perhaps on summer Saturdays). They will make up a third of the fleet, which means Oxford/Cotswolds and Bristol diagrams - and even if there is a problem, as devon metro says, a suitable set with a full buffet will be stepped up for a West Country or South Wales service.

There is not going to be a large area for people to stand in - these things are designed to minimise seating loss - think something like an Adelante buffet or the buffets in converted Mk2^▸ (Mark 2 coach) first class coaches that ran in CrossCountry loco-hauled sets.

[Btline]

But I thought HST^▸ (High Speed Train) availability was very poor (hence the Turbos on Cotswolds).

So what happens when there are no working HSTs to do a Pullman train, apart from a 2+7.

And during peak times, the 8 coaches are needed (both First and Standard!).

As for any time improvements, they are clearly not needed. A Turbo (with its relatively poor acceleration - shown in a graph on another thread - and lower top speed) can run London to Oxford in less than an hour - I don't think the extra speed is needed.

Although the plans are better than the original trolley idea (and the NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) proposals) I still think it is a VERY bad move.

[thetrout]

So what happens when there are no working HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to do a Pullman train, apart from a 2+7.

I've got the answer, your not going to like it i'm afraid. Cancel the Pullman Restaurant would be the order of the day. (If you'll forgive the pun )

In all honesty I would say the chances of a HST with proper buffet not being available, would be slim. If it did happen. I guess it would be our friend Bad Luck being drawn out of the bag

[Btline]

But it is not just the loss of the restaurant (which is very popular on the services I mention). It is the loss of seats!

[Kingfisherdart]

Why can a company like Firstgroup justify removing trailers from its HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) - even though there is a recession, when it manages to post such massive year on year profits?

Granted, there has been much investment on the route recently, but what I feel sets FGW^▸ (First Great Western) apart from other operators such as Crosscountry, National Express and the like are the good facilities on its trains - full buffet/travelling chef/pullman service, ample first class, comfortable standard class, with good leg room, a good number of toilets, and clean trains. I find even the local trains a pleasure to travel on over other operators - give me an FGW '158' over a Voyager, or SWT^▸ (South West Trains) '444' any day of the week.

If cutbacks like this take place too often, FGW is in danger of sliding into the absolute minimum of on board services, such as those seen on the Weymouth to Waterloo line.