Walk-on vs book in advance

[whole diary]

[Zoe]

Swindon to London is now ^40 off peak, Swindon to Reading is now ^21 off peak.  I know people will say book in advance but is this the type of journey you would expect to have to book in advance to travel at a reasonable fair?  The journeys are only 1 hour for Swindon to London and 30 minutes from Swindon to Reading and the frequency is at least 4 tph.  As I said in another thread, having high walk-on fares is encouraging car travel for journeys not planned in advance.

[Btline]

But the trains are full, so fares won't go down.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (and other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), minus Chiltern ) don't care about jams on the M4 or the fact that some people are put off by the sky high prices. They want their trains to be as full as possible, without making the journey uncomfortably full. This gives them the most profit, while keeping people happy - they get a seat.

[devon_metro]

I'm not convinced that 2000 Standard class seats are utilised between Swindon and London/Reading off peak...

(estimated 400 Standard class seats and 5tph)

Would it not be better to reduce availability of AP fares in order to lower walk on fares?

[DevonTrains2008]

The walk-on fares within Devon & Cornwall are great value! (however it's best to get a seat reservation on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) the day before!)  Out of these two counties, however, the fares are extremley high - or so I find (especially with FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) why can't FGW bring the rest of it's network's fares in line with Devon and Cornwall!

[devon_metro]

The walk-on fares within Devon & Cornwall are great value! (however it's best to get a seat reservation on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) the day before!)  Out of these two counties, however, the fares are extremley high - or so I find (especially with FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) why can't FGW bring the rest of it's network's fares in line with Devon and Cornwall!

Probably because the trains are fairly busy anyway. From 0930 - 1200 i'd say every Bristol - London leaves packed, particularly in holidays along with the 1600 onwards.

[simonw]

I find really annoying that the cost per mile on a single journey varies so much, particularly as you travel east towards London.

From BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains), a typical journey east is THREE times a similar distance west.

I appreciate that the demand from Bristol to London is VERY high, but why not add more capacity on this part of the network?

Reduce all current services to seven carriages, and create 8 12-carriage trains to run between Bristol to London Paddington every 15 minutes. Existing services can then be more direct and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can reduce the cost of stopping service from BPW/BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI))/BATH/CHP/SWD/DPW/RDG^‡(resolve)/PGN.

Will never happen, but FGW have go to add more capacity in this part of the network.

[devon_metro]

Where are you finding 16 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars?

[Tim]

Would it not be better to reduce availability of AP fares in order to lower walk on fares?

I agree with you.  Your proposal males sense if the railways are viewed as a public service. But FGW^▸ (First Great Western) does not see it that way.  They view the AP and walkon customers as falling into distinct markets (AP for discretionary travel and walk on for journeys that need to be made at whatever price and are often business people on expenses) and they are probably mostly right in this respect.

However, a point will come when their business assumption breaks down and even businesspeople travellig on expenses will no longer be willing to pay the extortionate walkon fares.  The recession and rising fares will only hasten this.

My firm has offices in Bath, Cardiff and London and each staff member makes one-off peak time journeys into London.  When I started 8 years ago, the open return Bath-London fare was ^90 and I made the journey and paid the fare once or twice a week (as did 8 other people = about ^700 per week for FGW).   Now the fare is ^154 and the journey ten minutes longer and the bosses have decided that enough was enough.   We are instructed to travel less, and when we do to save money buy using AP tickets or splitting the tcikets at Didcot.  A secretary has been charged with booking everyones tickets so that the more senior members of the firm avoid the hassle of booking their own tickets.  Result is that average travel claim is now about ^80 and although the firm is 40% bigger only about 4 journeys a week are made (=about ^320 per week for FGW).  The Figures for 2002/2003 show a total of ^34,000 spent on train tickets.  In 2007/2008 the firm spent ^19,000 in total (plus about ^3,000 extra on DHL couriers to move paper between offices that was perviously carried on the train) and each staff member got a ^200 bonus for helping to reduce this expense and allowed to travel First class to the recent Christmas party in London (I estimate that the partners will have each netted an extra ^1,000 in profit due to this saving) .  I have a feeling that if FGW continue to take busines travellers for granted other companies will be doing the same as us. 

[devon_metro]

I find Paignton - London Paddington off peak insulting at ^67 walk up. If they had a super off peak fare they would probably offset the coast by a rise in long distance passengers, along with boosting London's economy as i'd have more money to spend on accommodation!

The last time I went to London it was cheap due to a rather tasty lack of T&Cs on their season ticket offers!

[Zoe]

I find Paignton - London Paddington off peak insulting at ^67 walk up. If they had a super off peak fare they would probably offset the coast by a rise in long distance passengers, along with boosting London's economy as i'd have more money to spend on accommodation!

It's also ^67 from Newton Abbot, in 2005 it was only ^49.  If I go to London again, I will be using a combination NTA^» (Newton Abbott - next trains) - HON with Devon & Cornwall Railcard and HON - WAT with Network Railcard.  This will cost a total of ^46.80 so FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have lost a customer for the Exeter to London section due to their policy of charging expensive fares if you don't book in advance though.  I don't expect they will care though as other will just pay any price and if you live north/east of Exeter you don't even have the option.

[devon_metro]

I'd never have the time to do that, as usually return on the same day. Last time I left Newton Abbot at 7.30am and was in London by 10! Marvellous.

[simonw]

Until the capacity of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) franchise is increased in the Bristol - London area, and possibly a competitive open franchise in this area, then very high rail fares will continue.

Using off peak fares do not save much either, and the restrictions on use at Reading station me that when I use off peak travel to Reading, I get an off peak ticket from BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) to DPW, and a day return from DPW-RDG^‡(resolve). This combination costs ^15 less that a restricted off peak ticket from BPW-RDG, and allows me travel from RDG when I want!

The recent rail fare increases, and drop in fuel prices now make the train non-economic for me, and probably many others, and consequently will persuade a lot more to use the train less. And when driving, at least I get a seat!

[thetrout]

Some of the South West Trains Fares are reasonable. It is cheaper for me to Take the 54 Bus service from Taunton - Yeovil Bus Station and then another Bus from Yeovil Bus Station to Yeovil Junction Station Using my Bus Pass at a cost of ^0.00

Then Take SWT^▸ (South West Trains) to London Waterloo at a cost of ^28.05 with my Railcard for a Super Off Peak Return. Or a Super Off Peak Day Travel Card of ^29.75. If the Journey is completed on a weekend You can Upgrade to First Class for the small sum of ^5 each way which for the person with long legs might be a good idea for a 3 hour journey.

Whereas FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Charge From Taunton - London Paddington ^39.60 for an Off Peak Return or ^42.90 For an Off Peak Travelcard Again Using My Railcard. Thats a saving of over ^10

Granted if you dont have a bus pass and/or railcard the fare will be more expensive but the bus will cost you about ^6 for a ticket from Taunton - Yeovil which is valid on any First Bus service in the South West. The Yeovil Junction Bus costs less than ^2 so there is to be big savings to be made should you wish to endure an hours bus journey and take the scenic route into London from Taunton

[Zoe]

It should be noted that the policy of charging expensive walk-on fares if you don't book in advance is not limited to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), most of the intercity TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) seem to have this policy.  Newton Abbot to Birmingham at ^73.70 off peak is even more expensive than Newton Abbot to London.

[gwr2006]

It should be noted that the policy of charging expensive walk-on fares if you don't book in advance is not limited to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), most of the intercity TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) seem to have this policy.  Newton Abbot to Birmingham at ^73.70 off peak is even more expensive than Newton Abbot to London.

It's worth noting that the TOCs have to comply with the Government's national fares policy that is designed to reduce the cost to the general taxpayer by getting rail users to pay more. That's why, since 2004, regulated fares have been allowed to rise by July's inflation plus 1% in the following January (between 1995 and 2004 fares rose by inflation less 1%).

Regulated fares include

• Standard season tickets to, from and within the London Travelcard area
• Standard Anytime Day Singles and Anytime Day Returns to a station in the London Travelcard area from the London suburbs, roughly 35-50 miles from London
• Anytime Day and Period Returns for journeys under 50 miles, or wholly within the old Network SouthEast area
• Off-Peak Period Returns (for journeys over 50 miles) for all journeys where a Saver ticket existed in February 2003
• Weekly Season tickets, wherever a weekly season ticket existed in February 2003

Unregulated fares can rise by varying amounts, and are set by each train operator according to the market conditions in which they operate.

Unregulated Fares, include:

• all First Class Fares
• all Advance Fares
• all tickets (other than Travelcards) which include through travel to destinations served by bus services, light rail services or London Underground
• tickets which include a non-rail element such as entrance to a museum, theme park or other attraction
• Anytime Day and Period Returns for journeys under 50 miles or outside the old Network SouthEast area
• Off Peak Period Returns, for journeys where there was no Saver fare in 2003
• Weekly Season tickets, for journeys where there was no weekly season fare in 2003

The ^73.70 quoted for Newton Abbot to Birmingham is an Off-Peak Return bought on the day but I've just checked on the National Rail website and if I book just two days in advance the fare drops to only ^39.50.  Cross Country had the biggest increase of any TOC increasing their unregulated fares by 11% and Chiltern Railways weren't far behind at 7.5% incidentally.[/list]