Most complicated timetable ever

[whole diary]

[Btline]

You think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) timetable E is bad? Just read the "Evening Restrictions" section in this FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) timetable.

And then look at the timetable pages. Help - notes and symbols everywhere!

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/content/doc/timetables/tlbook_1.pdf

Help: someone explain!

[John R]

AH yes, the much hated Evening Restriction on people travelling out of London on cheap day return tickets. This was plotted as part of the franchise bid, but conveniently missed off the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) briefings. Then it was introduced to complete uproar. It's still there though.

Maybe if commuter traffic drops they won't have a reason to keep it......   

[Btline]

But they have certainly made the restrictions hard to understand!

[willc]

But they have certainly made the restrictions hard to understand!

And have they fed tham all into the online journey planners? It may have been changed now, but until recently these were cheerfully telling people that CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) are valid on Cotswold Line evening peak trains out of Paddington.

[Btline]

Probably not.

At least they are not giving penalty fares for people who use off peak tickets in the restricted time - just made to pay an upgrade.

[eightf48544]

We had off peak returns on the Southern in the early 60s they were pink.

They were a pain, you had to ask when the passenger was returning and that they couldn't come back between 16:30 and 18:30.

You got endless complaints when they were turned away at the barrier, "The booking clerk didn't tell me".

In the end they were scrapped as being more trouble than they were worth.

The other stupid thing about the Thameslink ones, I understand, is that they are not applicable to travelcards within the travalcard area. TFL^▸ (Transport for London) said NO. Do they do Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) yet/

Also didn't I read that  if you buy to Elephant and Castle or London Bridge ( or anywhere South of the Thames) they don't apply Northbound. 

It's just yet another example of the general mess that constititutes railfares.

I notice no-one has offered to explain all the restrictions on various railfares on one side of A4.

[Tim]

But they have certainly made the restrictions hard to understand!

And have they fed tham all into the online journey planners? It may have been changed now, but until recently these were cheerfully telling people that CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) are valid on Cotswold Line evening peak trains out of Paddington.

if the restrictions are not in the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner), then it is hard to imagine that they can be enforced at least again passengers who brought their tickets online in good faith.  The ticket is a contract for carriage and if you purchased your ticket on the OJP which said that it was valid on a particular train then the information from the OJP is surely a condition of the contract.  If the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) tries to excess you fare or make you buy a new ticket then they would probably be in breach of their side of the contract would they not?   

[Ollie]

But they have certainly made the restrictions hard to understand!

And have they fed tham all into the online journey planners? It may have been changed now, but until recently these were cheerfully telling people that CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) are valid on Cotswold Line evening peak trains out of Paddington.

if the restrictions are not in the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner), then it is hard to imagine that they can be enforced at least again passengers who brought their tickets online in good faith.  The ticket is a contract for carriage and if you purchased your ticket on the OJP which said that it was valid on a particular train then the information from the OJP is surely a condition of the contract.  If the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) tries to excess you fare or make you buy a new ticket then they would probably be in breach of their side of the contract would they not?   

If they have an accompanying reservation then I would say let them go, but at times I've had people without reservations say that online said they could, and then you check yourself and it shows correctly but they have read it wrong. Really I think it's a case of doing an excess and then claim back through the appropriate customer services of whoever they think incorrectly advised them.

[Tim]

But they have certainly made the restrictions hard to understand!

And have they fed tham all into the online journey planners? It may have been changed now, but until recently these were cheerfully telling people that CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) are valid on Cotswold Line evening peak trains out of Paddington.

if the restrictions are not in the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner), then it is hard to imagine that they can be enforced at least again passengers who brought their tickets online in good faith.  The ticket is a contract for carriage and if you purchased your ticket on the OJP which said that it was valid on a particular train then the information from the OJP is surely a condition of the contract.  If the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) tries to excess you fare or make you buy a new ticket then they would probably be in breach of their side of the contract would they not?   

If they have an accompanying reservation then I would say let them go, but at times I've had people without reservations say that online said they could, and then you check yourself and it shows correctly but they have read it wrong. Really I think it's a case of doing an excess and then claim back through the appropriate customer services of whoever they think incorrectly advised them.

I absolutely agree with you Ollie, staff can't always be expected to believe what people claim to have been told or think they have been told by the OJP or booking staff without being shown at least some kind of evidence.  they have to make a decsion on the spot.  But if a TOC has knowingly been offering incorrect information to the detriment of customers then they ought to get into big trouble for it (with trading standards or ORF or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) or someone).  To my mind if their was any justice in the world FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) would be given a fine larger than the extra money they have made by applying the restrictions.

If passengers are expected to play by the rules wrt tickets (and are rightly punished when they do not), then the same harsh regime must apply to the TOCs   

[Btline]

But what if the passenger prints out a screenshot of the website where s(he) bought the ticket, clearly showing the off peak fare valid for that train?

[John R]

Can't they be doctored?

[Ollie]

I'm aware  of a situation where this occurred and there was indeed a staff brief put out saying to allow the off peak ticket until the problem has been rectified.

Could easily be doctored I would think.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Well, yes, a screen print probably could be doctored.

A suggested solution, then:

Passenger prints off their online journey planner webpage, with the apparent lack of restrictions, and presents this to the train manager: TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context) allows off-peak travel, subject to passenger providing name and address, with suitable photo ID (for example, driving licence).  Thus, the onus is then on the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to justify any subsequent claim for excess fare charges - rather than the TM and passenger have to haggle about it on board at the time?

The requirement to provide a verified name and address should discourage any such 'doctoring'?