Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

I'm saddened that Boxing Day has become just another day for the British public to indulge in their obsession called consumerism.

For many, it's not about consumerism. It's about having the option of getting to/from family and friends without having to rely on the private car.

Yet again I also see we have the tired "Ooos gunna pay for it" argument. Same suspect trotting it out. 

If TfL^» (Transport for London - about), certain lines, certain bus operators, scheduled coach operators, can all provide a service on the 26th December without resorting to eye-watering peak fares then it cannot be beyond the ability of all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to do likewise.

[IndustryInsider]

I predict Crossrail will have a Boxing Day service within a couple of years.

I noted that Overground have no Boxing Day services, so I'm not so sure about that

Good to see that the new London Overground concession, awarded to Arriva today, has, amongst other things, a commitment to run Boxing Day services on some routes.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-overground-services-to-run-later-into-the-night-after-privatisation-deal-a3206456.html

From the horses mouth for 2017:

https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/major-works-and-events/boxing-day-2017

London Overground: No service

I’ll happily predict certain Overground routes will also have a Boxing Day service within a few years.

I can appreciate Broadgage’s centiments too, but I’m afraid that is not the direction opinion in the country is heading in.  The railway should be prepared to adapt to those changing opinions and priorities of the public - whether they suit it or not.

[broadgage]

I suspect that the economics of running boxing day services are now less favourable than a few decades ago.
There are many expenses in running a railway, but some of these are now more transparent than was the case years ago.

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.
It was a simple matter to compare these expenses with the fare revenue and decide that it was either profitable or not profitable but still worth it as a public service.
The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

Likewise building and maintaining the track was expensive, but was not costed per day of use. I cant imagine a director in 1960 stating "if we run trains on boxing day, the annual cost of p-way maintenance will increase from £363,000 to £364,000"

So in 1960, the costs of using already existing and maintained track and rolling stock were in effect zero. The only extra costs were wages and traction fuel.

I doubt if fuel for non traction purposes was costed per day. Much more likely that "Outer worzelshire station costs about £200 a year to heat and light"  rather than "it will cost an extra £1 to heat and light it on boxing day"

These days costs are more directly attributable, track access costs a certain amount per mile per train, use of the train is also increasingly directly per mile. How much for an extra days use of an IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) ?
All this may or may not increase total costs, but it certainly discourages extra use of existing assets.

[Tim]

I would like to see some kind of service.  I don't think it needs to be fast or intensive use all the lines or all the stock or even run for the full day, but something that serves most stations and gets people were they want to go.

[Tim]

I suspect that the economics of running boxing day services are now less favourable than a few decades ago.
There are many expenses in running a railway, but some of these are now more transparent than was the case years ago.

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.
It was a simple matter to compare these expenses with the fare revenue and decide that it was either profitable or not profitable but still worth it as a public service.
The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

Likewise building and maintaining the track was expensive, but was not costed per day of use. I cant imagine a director in 1960 stating "if we run trains on boxing day, the annual cost of p-way maintenance will increase from £363,000 to £364,000"

So in 1960, the costs of using already existing and maintained track and rolling stock were in effect zero. The only extra costs were wages and traction fuel.

I doubt if fuel for non traction purposes was costed per day. Much more likely that "Outer worzelshire station costs about £200 a year to heat and light"  rather than "it will cost an extra £1 to heat and light it on boxing day"

These days costs are more directly attributable, track access costs a certain amount per mile per train, use of the train is also increasingly directly per mile. How much for an extra days use of an IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) ?
All this may or may not increase total costs, but it certainly discourages extra use of existing assets.

  The flip side of all this of course if that the ToCs have accountants who know exactly what it is costing to have their capital investment sitting idle for a day. 

[ChrisB]

Probably contracted that way with Hitachi. God knows how much they'd want for their staff to work Christmas night to prep their IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) for Boxing Day

[IndustryInsider]

I should imagine a few staff will be working at North Pole for Hitachi ensuring continuous coverage over Christmas anyway, just as do at Old Oak Common.

[bobm]

To be honest I would like to see the problems that voluntary working on a Sunday causes to the weekend schedule year round solved before we worry about Boxing Day.

[IndustryInsider]

I quite agree, Bob.  Talks with drivers unions regarding exactly that are ongoing.

[grahame]

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.

Plus all those signalmen along the way in those days, and having just about every station staffed in addition to the on-train staff of at least three (for steam trains).

The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

I can appreciate extra maintenance costs ... but hadn't realised that if a 150 was used on Boxing Day it would have to be withdrawn from active service a day earlier.  I understood that certain trains (such as the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)) had in fact already been in service a little longer than was initially planned.

[Tim]

To be honest I would like to see the problems that voluntary working on a Sunday causes to the weekend schedule year round solved before we worry about Boxing Day.

A very good point.  I'd also like to see the new fleet introduced and the electrification finished first, but I do think that the time for a boxing day service is coming soon.  The number of young people living in cities and without cars (who are just the demographic who spend Christmas holidays travelling between home and parents and boy/girlfriends parents)  is increasing.

[TonyK]

But suppose a service between, say Paddington and Bristol via Bath, calling at all major and a few minor stations, is introduced, running every 2 hours each way. The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!" You wouldn't please everyone by a long chalk. Plus it would probably have to be bustituted at least part of the way because of engineering works, and that is where I think the nub of the problem is. It would probably not be hard to get some drivers working on Boxing Day by the simple expedient of waving a large wad of cash under their noses (worked for me for a few years), but you would have to do the same for Plan B. Would it be worth it?

[ChrisB]

The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!"

And there in lies the rub - Almost need a peak service in the afternoon, certainly where the 27th was a workday. While pax would expect the cheapest fare on offer as its a public holiday & holidays are cheap to travel generally. Income wouldn't cover the outlays needed to run it.

[Tim]

The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!"

And there in lies the rub - Almost need a peak service in the afternoon, certainly where the 27th was a workday. While pax would expect the cheapest fare on offer as its a public holiday & holidays are cheap to travel generally. Income wouldn't cover the outlays needed to run it.

I get that completely, but I do think that they could start with a tentative service at least.  Getting capacity and price right for a new service always requires some experimenting.

[IndustryInsider]

Indeed, Tim.  Start off small, the DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) routes from Paddington to Reading/Oxford/Newbury and Reading to Gatwick along with Thames Valley branches.  Then perhaps try extending to Bristol, Cardiff and maybe Plymouth.

You won’t find out what demand there is unless you try it.  I don’t think it will be as large as ChrisB thinks, and it will help dampen down the horrendous scenes we often see on the 27th.  Most important of all though is to wait until Crossrail and electrification works are complete so there are unlikely to be any major engineering possessions.  All ties in quite nicely to include the next franchise ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender) if you ask me!