Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

You brought up the survey, Sir! :-)

I bitterly regret it! I didn't realise what a frenzy it would generate!

Someone asked the question as to what % of people worked on Boxing Day so I tried to find out - and am now losing the will to live!  

[Chris from Nailsea]

Shall we get back to the merits of running trains on Boxing Day as I've suggested above, or shall we ask the admins to split the thread?

So far, I'm happy to see such a lively, but still good-natured, debate develop on this whole clearly contentious issue: no need to split the topic yet!  

[Chris from Nailsea]

In the retail sector there is one large staff owned company (John Lewis also trading as Waitrose) ...

Purely in the interests of accuracy: Waitrose is the retail grocery part of the John Lewis Partnership.

[old original]

Interesting to note that even some retail giants had a split. Tesco in St Austell was open on Boxing Day but the one in Truro wasn't. Both are similar size so whether this was a commercial decision or the staff had a choice, I know not...

[stuving]

Well, I know which source I'd rather believe: ONS^» (Office for National Statistics - website)'s quarterly survey (LFS) of 1 in 1000 households (53,000), using face-face interviews; or a phone survey by someone you've never heard of, who may have selected 2,000 people as representative (of what?) - or may not - and were probably thought by those they called to be suggers (perhaps correctly).

I reckon that how many people do work over these holidays is relevant to whether the railways should operate - indicating both how 'special' that would make railway employees, and how much demand there might be. To which end, figures for Boxing day would be helpful to us.

Annoyingly, the LFS (Labour Force Survey) does ask which public holidays are worked - but those data do not seem to be processed and published anywhere, apart from the ad-hoc ones in that link. It looks as though you need to sign up as a user of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) data Service to get the raw data; I might just possibly try to do that.

In fact, there was an earlier set too, for 2008: see this Excel file. The detailed occupational groups chosen for these two summaries are different, which isn't helpful. There has been a revision of the labelling scheme (SOC2000 to SOC2010), though that should not affect these detailed group labels much. However, there are some puzzling changes; e.g. that for midwives (a clearly defined group, I think) 35% worked Christmas 2008 and just 13% in 2012.

For railway workers, it looks odd that in 2012 group 8234 'Rail transport operatives' was one of the highest at 18%. However, like all labels you need to check what it covers - or does not. It excludes train drivers, and all public-facing train and station staff, so it will presumably be largely NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s staff such as signallers and some PW^▸ (Permanent Way) workers. Professional engineers and technicians have their own groups, as will construction workers not in rail-specific jobs.  In 2008 group 8143 'Rail construction and maintenance operatives' was listed, at 19%; I guess that will have gone up as there are more big projects going on this year.   

[Electric train]

For railway workers, it looks odd that in 2012 group 8234 'Rail transport operatives' was one of the highest at 18%. However, like all labels you need to check what it covers - or does not. It excludes train drivers, and all public-facing train and station staff, so it will presumably be largely NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s staff such as signallers and some PW^▸ (Permanent Way) workers. Professional engineers and technicians have their own groups, as will construction workers not in rail-specific jobs.  In 2008 group 8143 'Rail construction and maintenance operatives' was listed, at 19%; I guess that will have gone up as there are more big projects going on this year.   

This is a tough one, yes I am an Engineer and I am a Railway worker so if asked in a survey did you work over Christmas I would tick the Railway worker.

Railways is the sector I work in Engineering is my trade I am a professional Railway Engineer (confuses the Americans bless um)

[stuving]

This is a tough one, yes I am an Engineer and I am a Railway worker so if asked in a survey did you work over Christmas I would tick the Railway worker.

Railways is the sector I work in Engineering is my trade I am a professional Railway Engineer (confuses the Americans bless um)

Don't worry - your NSO interviewer will cope with the complexities of SOC2010 - fortunately, as even just volume 1 of the guide is 266 pages.

Thinking about it, with 1 in 1000 addresses chosen each quarter, presumably some forum members must have taken part in the LFS at some stage. Anyone?

[Super Guard]

I'm not overly surprised that people have rushed off to find a survey which contradicts one which they didn't like the sound of and trash the one I referenced - my surprise I guess is that they only managed to find one that uses estimated data which is two years out of date and only refers to Christmas Day, not Boxing day which as you may have noted is the theme of this thread.........both sides in any debate of course can use statistics to their own perceived advantage.

You're right, I 'rushed off' to find a more credible figure because I could not believe for one second that 16% of people worked on Christmas day.  The fact the figures are two years out of date really doesn't alter much - unless you're seriously suggesting that both surveys are correct, meaning number of Xmas Day working Britons has risen from 1.8m two years ago to over 10m this year?  Personally, I would certainly trust an official estimate from the Government over those of an on-line polling company commissioned by an on-line money management company.

I don't know, and neither do you, and neither do those compiling either survey, they are estimates based on what people have told them - I would imagine the real figure is somewhere between the two, judging by most surveys margins for error.

Shall we get back to the merits of running trains on Boxing Day as I've suggested above, or shall we ask the admins to split the thread?

Somewhere between the two and margins for error... You do realise you can admit occasionally that you may just be a little off the mark without the sky falling? 

For the record I didn't rush off to find an article to discredit you, you will see the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) article was published on 24 December 2014 and the fact I read it that day meant it stuck in my mind that your figure didn't seem quite right.  A quick google search of "BBC Christmas Day workers" bought the article back.

Interestingly, you will note the ONS^» (Office for National Statistics - website) figures actually show it was a drop to 2.9% from both the 2008 & 2010 figures.

[IndustryInsider]

Anyway, even if the wider Greater Western franchise holder doesn't provide a service, I can certainly see the Crossrail route running on Boxing Day pretty much from the start.

I've just seen a summary of the Crossrail T&C's for new drivers when MTR Corp take over the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) concession from this May (initially just the Liverpool Street - Shenfield service), and it makes interesting reading regarding Boxing Day.

Agreement for new drivers to keep a day's holiday for Christmas Day is included, but for Boxing Day payment of triple time if drivers are booked out is specifically stated, with no mention of it being any different to a normal working day other than the enhanced payment.  Existing drivers can opt into this contract if they wish, or remain on their current T&C's.

Whilst that doesn't mean a Boxing Day service will operate, for their to be a specific agreement regarding that day, including a rate of remuneration, it looks like MTR Corp are going to make it easy for them to introduce one if they are instructed to by TfL!

Good news.

[TaplowGreen]

Anyway, even if the wider Greater Western franchise holder doesn't provide a service, I can certainly see the Crossrail route running on Boxing Day pretty much from the start.

I've just seen a summary of the Crossrail T&C's for new drivers when MTR Corp take over the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) concession from this May (initially just the Liverpool Street - Shenfield service), and it makes interesting reading regarding Boxing Day.

Agreement for new drivers to keep a day's holiday for Christmas Day is included, but for Boxing Day payment of triple time if drivers are booked out is specifically stated, with no mention of it being any different to a normal working day other than the enhanced payment.  Existing drivers can opt into this contract if they wish, or remain on their current T&C's.

Whilst that doesn't mean a Boxing Day service will operate, for their to be a specific agreement regarding that day, including a rate of remuneration, it looks like MTR Corp are going to make it easy for them to introduce one if they are instructed to by TfL!

Good news.

Good news indeed - sounds like a step in the right direction!

[Super Guard]

I'm pretty sure triple time was scoffed at as "pure greed" a few pages back.. now it's a step in the right direction?

I can't keep up... 

[TaplowGreen]

I'm pretty sure triple time was scoffed at as "pure greed" a few pages back.. now it's a step in the right direction?

I can't keep up... 

Means to an end, whether that is justified is another argument -  step in the right direction to a Boxing Day service - triple time is more than generous for Boxing Day but it is no doubt intended to forestall handbag waving from the Unions (whom I would suspect were party to it), and it protects the rights of what will be the dwindling band of employees who are not obliged to work over Christmas (although I suspect many of these will be tempted at that rate), so notwithstanding the amounts of money involved it would seem to be a win/win all around......lets hope it sets an example for the rest of the network.

[ChrisB]

Don't whine when fares go up to pay for it....

[TaplowGreen]

Don't whine when fares go up to pay for it....

.........ahhh but this is several years hence, by which time no doubt the taxes and fares paid by myself and millions of others will have enabled the railways to move onto broad, sunlit uplands with unbelievable levels of efficiency, comfort, capacity and reliability and we will be only to happy to hand over the keys to our houses, cars and indeed all our worldly goods for the privilege of setting foot inside one of the wheeled chariots that will await to speed us to our destinations, with a salute, wink and cheery wave from the jolly red cheeked chap on the platform who will also have helped us with our luggage and ensured we are cosy in our seats with a cup of tea and a bun.............7 days a week, 364 days a year!

(But still no trains at Taplow on a Sunday!) 

[Super Guard]

(But still no trains at Taplow on a Sunday!) 

Surely you can terrorise Crossrail by the time that all happens?