Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Minimum sample size....

With 1/3 Scottish. A) wonder why that was mentioned, b) might slew the national figure. Surely 1/3 of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) residents aten't residing in Scotland?

[ellendune]

Minimum sample size....

With 1/3 Scottish. A) wonder why that was mentioned, b) might slew the national figure. Surely 1/3 of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) residents aten't residing in Scotland?

No it is less then 10%. And Scotland has a much tradition of celebrating New Year rather than Christmas.  Down to the Calvinists in the 16th century. 

So what percentage of employees were in work over Christmas and Boxing Day? I would still guess is was less than 5% even on boxing day?

A recent survey suggested 16% on Christmas Day and 20% on Boxing Day.

I am surprised it is that high - but accept the figures.  I see that boxing day sales are one reason for the high number working on Christmas Day.  Is it necessary?

Driven by demand I guess?

Or greed on the part of the retailers - we used to manage not to shop on Boxing day without problems.

[anthony215]

In south wales some bus operators have now started trialling bus services on a limited basis on Boxing and new years day.Certainly the Greyhound service between Swansea and Bristol Airport was very busy as well as the  limited bus services around Swansea.

For me Christmas feels like  any other day so if I was asked I would be willing to work as long as I was given at least double time and a day off in leu at least until I have any children in the future

[GBM]

In south wales some bus operators have now started trialling bus services on a limited basis on Boxing and new years day.Certainly the Greyhound service between Swansea and Bristol Airport was very busy as well as the  limited bus services around Swansea.

For me Christmas feels like  any other day so if I was asked I would be willing to work as long as I was given at least double time and a day off in leu at least until I have any children in the future

First Kenow asked for volunteers to run a Boxing and New Year service for 2014/2015, but no one volunteered.  No additional day off in lieu offered - it would be a normal working day.
Staff really DO want to have a drink and relax with their family and friends (bearing in mind a drastically reduced blood/alcohol levels for bus drivers in First).
Word later came out that it was anticipated only running a Sunday service on the 18 route (Penzance/Truro).
It is felt that a service of some sort will be in place for 2015/2016

[Super Guard]

I suspect the sample wasn't big enough

Data always trumps opinion, but read it for yourself;

http://www.thinkmoney.co.uk/news-advice/are-you-working-on-christmas-day-nearly-1-in-6-of-us-are-0-4366-0.htm

I'm sure the ONS^» (Office for National Statistics - website) trumps your data.

2.9% worked Christmas Day in 2012.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30595814

[paul7575]

I'm extremely grateful to the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) for this astonishing piece of information:

"The clergy came top of the list of occupations most likely to be at work at Christmas."   

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

I'd just discovered that figure as well, Super Guard!  Here's a link to the spreadsheet:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/labour/december-2014/number-of-people-estimated-to-work-on-christmas-day--2012.xls

[ellendune]

I'd just discovered that figure as well, Super Guard!  Here's a link to the spreadsheet:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/labour/december-2014/number-of-people-estimated-to-work-on-christmas-day--2012.xls

Which also shows that working in Scotland was not significantly higher on Christmas Day. 

Data always trumps opinion, but read it for yourself;

http://www.thinkmoney.co.uk/news-advice/are-you-working-on-christmas-day-nearly-1-in-6-of-us-are-0-4366-0.htm

So unless work patterns have changed massively since 2012 the other survey was significantly flawed. 

I suspect the sample wasn't big enough

I think it was more likely something systematic in the way the sample was selected

If that is the quality of the research ThinkMoney works on I don't think I will trust them with any of my money. 

[ChrisB]

Minimum sample size....

With 1/3 Scottish. A) wonder why that was mentioned, b) might slew the national figure. Surely 1/3 of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) residents aten't residing in Scotland?

No it is less then 10%.

From the aricle linked -

*OnePoll questioned a nationally representative sample of 2,000 adults aged 18 and over between 21st November and 28th November 2014, of whom 636 were Scottish residents.

636 of 2,000 sampled is 31.8%. So to be nationally representative, it is suggesting that % of the UK population reside there - they obviously don't - so the poll not representative of the UK.

I think it was more likely something systematic in the way the sample was selected

If that is the quality of the research ThinkMoney works on I don't think I will trust them with any of my money. 

Can't disagree there!

[JayMac]

In south wales some bus operators have now started trialling bus services on a limited basis on Boxing and new years day.Certainly the Greyhound service between Swansea and Bristol Airport was very busy as well as the  limited bus services around Swansea.

For me Christmas feels like  any other day so if I was asked I would be willing to work as long as I was given at least double time and a day off in leu at least until I have any children in the future

First Kenow asked for volunteers to run a Boxing and New Year service for 2014/2015, but no one volunteered.  No additional day off in lieu offered - it would be a normal working day.
Staff really DO want to have a drink and relax with their family and friends (bearing in mind a drastically reduced blood/alcohol levels for bus drivers in First).
Word later came out that it was anticipated only running a Sunday service on the 18 route (Penzance/Truro).
It is felt that a service of some sort will be in place for 2015/2016

The Buses of Somerset and First in Bristol, Bath & the West (FBBW) both ran services on Boxing Day, and New Years Day.

The former ran a Sunday service on all its routes on both days. The latter ran special timetables in Bristol & Bath only. The only longer distance services to operate in the FBBW area were the 376 from Bristol to Street (not Boxing Day), 39 from Bath to Bristol and the X2, X6 and X8 from Bristol to North Somerset destinations. There were no FBBW services in outlying towns/areas such as Weston-super-Mare (no X1 which was surprising considering the the X2/X6/X8 all ran), Frome, Trowbridge, Midsomer Norton/Radstock.

In the First Wessex, Dorset & South Somerset area the only services to run on either day were a special timetable on routes 1 & 10 in Weymouth on Boxing Day only. No other services ran.

So, top marks to The Buses of Somerset for their comprehensive service on both days. I initially thought I may be able to travel from Curry Rivel in Somerset all the way home to Lawrence Weston in Bristol on Boxing Day, if I wished to escape the family. Sadly I could only get as far as Weston-super-Mare (BoS 21), with no FBBW service from there to Bristol.

[TaplowGreen]

I'm not overly surprised that people have rushed off to find a survey which contradicts one which they didn't like the sound of and trash the one I referenced - my surprise I guess is that they only managed to find one that uses estimated data which is two years out of date and only refers to Christmas Day, not Boxing day which as you may have noted is the theme of this thread.........both sides in any debate of course can use statistics to their own perceived advantage.

The original agenda for this thread was really set by Industry Insider who observed that "I remain of the opinion that, come the end of the major electrification and Crossrail work, that any newly let franchise should include a Boxing Day service on the major FGW^▸ (First Great Western) routes".

It's been diverted (I'm as guilty of this as any) to encompass the entire question of working over Christmas, and the firm determination of some rail staff not to, for reasons ranging from quality time with family to the desire to consume lots of ale (both of which I fully empathise with!) or at least unless they are offered generous overtime to do so (which seems fair enough)..........the interests of customers however, for whom the railways exist, seem to have somewhat been lost in the ether.

It's pretty clear that there is a demand for Boxing day services, and I suspect that in the fullness of time in the context set by II's opinion above, the interests of the many will outweigh the narrow self interests of the few and we will see Boxing Day services resume.

No doubt the Union will scream and shout about it but a compromise will be found as is always the case with these things, and a lot of people will find their wallets a bit heavier come January's payday, and trains may be a little more comfortable on Dec 27th.

Best wishes to you all for 2015.

[IndustryInsider]

I'm not overly surprised that people have rushed off to find a survey which contradicts one which they didn't like the sound of and trash the one I referenced - my surprise I guess is that they only managed to find one that uses estimated data which is two years out of date and only refers to Christmas Day, not Boxing day which as you may have noted is the theme of this thread.........both sides in any debate of course can use statistics to their own perceived advantage.

You're right, I 'rushed off' to find a more credible figure because I could not believe for one second that 16% of people worked on Christmas day.  The fact the figures are two years out of date really doesn't alter much - unless you're seriously suggesting that both surveys are correct, meaning number of Xmas Day working Britons has risen from 1.8m two years ago to over 10m this year?  Personally, I would certainly trust an official estimate from the Government over those of an on-line polling company commissioned by an on-line money management company.

[TaplowGreen]

I'm not overly surprised that people have rushed off to find a survey which contradicts one which they didn't like the sound of and trash the one I referenced - my surprise I guess is that they only managed to find one that uses estimated data which is two years out of date and only refers to Christmas Day, not Boxing day which as you may have noted is the theme of this thread.........both sides in any debate of course can use statistics to their own perceived advantage.

You're right, I 'rushed off' to find a more credible figure because I could not believe for one second that 16% of people worked on Christmas day.  The fact the figures are two years out of date really doesn't alter much - unless you're seriously suggesting that both surveys are correct, meaning number of Xmas Day working Britons has risen from 1.8m two years ago to over 10m this year?  Personally, I would certainly trust an official estimate from the Government over those of an on-line polling company commissioned by an on-line money management company.

I don't know, and neither do you, and neither do those compiling either survey, they are estimates based on what people have told them - I would imagine the real figure is somewhere between the two, judging by most surveys margins for error.

Shall we get back to the merits of running trains on Boxing Day as I've suggested above, or shall we ask the admins to split the thread?

[ChrisB]

You brought up the survey, Sir! :-)

[ellendune]

I think there has to be a balance between the wishes (rather than needs) of customers and the wishes of staff.  

In the retail sector there is one large staff owned company (John Lewis also trading as Waitrose) which was noticeably not open on Boxing Day.  If this was such a big thing for the business you might expect it to be doing badly in financial terms. However it actually doing quite well.  So opening on boxing day clearly isn't a make or break for the company.  

The original agenda for this thread was really set by Industry Insider who observed that "I remain of the opinion that, come the end of the major electrification and Crossrail work, that any newly let franchise should include a Boxing Day service on the major FGW^▸ (First Great Western) routes".

Interested to hear how we might define "major FGW routes"?  

We should remember that TfL^» (Transport for London - about) will presumably make the decisions about Boxing Day services on Crossrail.