Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

I'm not sure why this has turned into a debate about Bank opening hours, but the Banks, unlike FGW^▸ (First Great Western), do provide a service on a 24/7/365 basis via ATMs^‡(resolve), online Banking etc........I can't really see anyone wanting to negotiate a mortgage on Boxing Day, however I DO see a lot of people who want to travel on Boxing Day, so to return to the point......why are there no trains on Boxing Day when demand clearly exists (notwithstanding engineering works)

Cheers

[IndustryInsider]

so to return to the point......why are there no trains on Boxing Day when demand clearly exists (notwithstanding engineering works)

I think it's fair to sum it up as follows:

1)  It would be a lot of effort for the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to set up.  You would need lots of staff who currently have agreements that mean they are guaranteed Boxing Day off of work, and those agreements would need altering.
2)  It would cost the TOCs money to do.  The number of people travelling, whilst potentially quite high, would not be enough to make it profitable on the vast majority of routes, given that you would be paying inflated staff costs and not be running as many trains as on a 'normal' day.
3)  The engineering work situation would make it difficult on some routes - especially here on the Great Western where it is very likely that most Christmas periods from now until the end of the decade will involve quite extensive work with Crossrail/Reading/Electrification.

As I've said before, as a member of staff who might be affected, I can't see any reason why a Boxing Day service shouldn't be at least trialled, but there are an awful lot of staff that don't have the same opinion!  The only way I can see it happening on a widespread level is if it is written into the terms of franchise agreements when they are let.  That way it would be costed and losses could be justified under a 'social need' basis like other aspects of the franchise agreement are based.  My submission to the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) franchise said as much - although I said that it should probably wait until the upgrade of the GWML is finished to give plenty of time to get staff agreements altered and increase the likelihood that large numbers of buses wouldn't be needed.  Doesn't seem that anyone wanted to take that idea on board though!

[phile]

The problem now is that something that was, was taken away.   Things are more difficult to re-instate than to remove.

[swrural]

How true Phile.  Nearly all the 'improvements' planned for 2014 to 2019 (except the wiring) are re-instatements. 

[Electric train]

I am not absolutely convinced the demand is there, if it was the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would run trains

[JayMac]

I am convinced the demand is there. But I think the cost of operation that the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would have to bear is currently prohibitive. With the major cost being staffing. In such a heavily unionised industry it is going to be difficult to negotiate Boxing Day pay to a level that would suit both employer and employee.

[bobm]

I too believe the demand is there but as well as the problems with getting staffing I am not sure the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are likely to favour it at the moment, if it means engineering work spread over longer periods at other times.  It might even mean fewer trains at other times.  At the moment a number of late evening services are set down only because at times of rail replacement it saves running a bus to a station if no-one on boards wants it.  Other services might join the list if there are frequent line closures.

[TaplowGreen]

I fully appreciate the Engineering situation but I get heartily sick about people hiding behind outdated Trade Union agreements which were negotiated in a different age.....it is no longer 1973, and in common with most other staff in public or quasi public sector organisations they would no doubt be well rewarded for working on Boxing Day....like most others who are more used to living in the real world of the private sector, we often have to work on these days for very little additional reward, not double/triple pay with extra leave....and it really gets my goat when I hear people bleating that if they had to work on Boxing Day then they wouldn't be able to get drunk on Christmas Day...as if that was any sort of reason not to offer a service...why is it always primarily the interests of staff, rather than customers, that make the difference? The London Underground staff philosophy is exactly the same, evidenced by strikes on the last 3 Boxing Days.

[ellendune]

..and it really gets my goat when I hear people bleating that if they had to work on Boxing Day then they wouldn't be able to get drunk on Christmas Day...as if that was any sort of reason not to offer a service...why is it always primarily the interests of staff, rather than customers, that make the difference?

I do not work on the railways, but I understand that the rules on alcohol and working on the railways are rather more strict that any other line of work I am aware of. Those closer to the industry may be able to give more details.

[TaplowGreen]

.....I am sure they are very strict and rightly so, same as airline staff etc...so basically the sensible thing to do would be not to drink if/when one's work doesn't permit it? So if someone had to work on Boxing Day, don't get plastered on Christmas Day.....simples? 

[inspector_blakey]

Not sure how they compare to the airline industry, of which I have no experience, but railway drug and alcohol policies for staff are *extremely* strict. So you're right in that staff can't have much to drink the day/evening before they're on duty, although as far as I'm aware this isn't a particular argument for the lack of train services on 25/26 Dec (services run relatively normally on 1 Jan, after all).

Interestingly, I have never heard a news story about a train driver or other member of staff being removed from duty for obvious drunkenness, but such incidents do seem to crop up periodically with airline flight crew.

[Electric train]

Interestingly, I have never heard a news story about a train driver or other member of staff being removed from duty for obvious drunkenness, but such incidents do seem to crop up periodically with airline flight crew.

It does and I have removed "staff" off of railway premisses into the safe custody of a D & A test agent, I have seen "staff" fail the spot checks. It's just no fuss is made about it.

[grahame]

.... staff can't have much to drink the day/evening before they're on duty, although as far as I'm aware this isn't a particular argument for the lack of train services on 25/26 Dec (services run relatively normally on 1 Jan, after all) ....

I would be very worried indeed about anyone who felt the need to get "happy" on his / her days off over Christmas to the extent that it was a serious concern as to whether they would be sober on their next shift.  Surely there are plenty of other shift breaks during the year if they want to drink occasionally. I have to start asking questions about someone who's really that determined that he/she should drink over Christmas - have they a dependency / are they too weakwilled to say to familiy "no, I have to look after the lives of hundreds of people tomorrow", and if either answer is "yes", should they really be in that position?

[TaplowGreen]

Quite right Grahame - almost all industries with safety considerations specify restrictions on the consumption of alcohol prior too (and during!) working hours.

The decision on running Boxing Day services should be demand led, the only legitimate reason for restricting it would be engineering works, but you would be surprised (or maybe not surprised) at the amount of rail staff (especially on the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Rail forum) who beat their chests and take the position along the lines of "my contract/union say I don't have to do it and/or I'm not giving up my Christmas beer"

Others accept the need for their own Businesses/services to offer a service on Boxing Day, rail staff should be no different....or they should seek alternative employment...times change and people have to change with them....it comes down to providing a customer focussed service from top to bottom, the concept of and need for the railways and some of their employees seem to struggle with.

[LiskeardRich]

I have seen staff putting all sorts of "moaning" regarding any possibility of them working Boxing Day in the future on another forum. I am going to place my thoughts on that matter here. It caused contraversy to some staff on another forum, and the post was deleted by moderators, unjustifiably I believe. Personally I see it as a fact of life.

If you are working in a service industry, you must be willing to work when the customers require the service. If the customers require service on boxing day, you must be prepared to work. If you arent willing to work when a service is required then you shouldnt be in a service based industry.

I worked in a business where customers wanted service on boxing day between 2004 and 2010, we were expected to work if scheduled. The business had calculated due to reduced opening hours, and projected sales 50% of staff could have boxing day as holiday, on a first come first served request basis. Anyone declined one year, would get priority the following year.
The holiday day if taken didnt come off your annual holiday allowance and those who worked had an extra day added to their allowance for the following year, as well as time and half pay for working the day. There was always at least 50% willing to work, such as those without families, those living away from families and not going home for christmas for whatever reason.
After we started doing Boxing Days, new starters contracts had boxing day working as a requirement within their terms of employment, but could still request as holiday.