Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

I am putting myself in the yes camp for there being some services on certain routes on boxing day.


What we really need is for some TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s to bit the bullet and trial a limited service on some routes.

An idea might be for a say an hourly Bristol TM^‡(resolve) - Swindon - London Paddington along with a limted Swansea - London paddington service.

Oxford - London paddington I suspect would be one route which would do well with an hourly service perhaps using  the class 166's or class 180's unless it become obvious that  hst's will be required because of teh demand.

Cardiff - Bristol TM - Bath and Weston Super Mare - Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway (perhaps an extension to Gloucester) I think would be well used with an hourly service.

Crosscountry I suspect would do well  along certain parts of their routes such as between Derby - Birmingham - Bristol - Plymouth generally I think an hourly service would be enough while we see what the response from the public is.

If demand is good then more services could be planned for the next boxing day providing there is enough staff to allow this to happen.

I think London Overground would do particulary well running services on boxing day especially to Stratford and on the west London line

[anthony215]

That said we would have to make sure the fact that there are some limited services on boxing day is promoted widely since we dont want to run trins carrying fresh air because passengers dont know the trains are running.

[EBrown]

I think it would be good to have Boxing day trains, personally, I'm not that bothered, but I know some people are.

What irritates me is the absolute failure by First Great Western and some other operators to provide clear, concise information.

The attachment shows the GW^▸ (Great Western) page, which no where clearly states closure on the 25/26, a saturday timetable 27/28th etc. It's just not good enough - on Twitter there were a fair few people tweeting "Can I get X train tomorrow"... Clearly passengers are confused which means they've failed.

[Ollie]

Seeing as that page is to do with how busy services are it makes sense there isn't timetable info.

Why would it when already have alterations that provides pdf's each week?

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Planned%20Changes/Nov%202012/Week%2039%20Saturday%2022%20December%202012%20until%20Friday%2028%20December%202012_Layout%201.ashx

[grahame]

What irritates me is the absolute failure by First Great Western and some other operators to provide clear, concise information.

Front page of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site to say: "Trains over Christmas"
Until 23rd December - normal service
24th December - Weekday services, some routes finishing early
25th December - NO SERVICE
26th December - NO SERVICE
27th December - Modified Saturday service
etc

Ollie, those change sheets are VERY useful ... but what's the criteria for inclusion?  As far as I can gather, TransWilts services (I looked up Melksham to Swindon) will be running as follows:

Melksham to Swindon

08:00 -> 08:31 (Not Thursday?)
18:17 -> 18:41

Swindon to Melksham

08:35 -> 09:01
18:44 -> 19:11

and that's only one of the four trains in its normal slot.    The printed timetable / standard .pdfs don't contain these, the update .pdf you pointed at doesn't - the only way I could work the out was by doing ticket / timetable searches.   Actually the times are rather nice, but if they're hidden away, no-ones going to know about them.

[Electric train]

My Dutch friends are talking about removing BD as a public holiday and just adding it to annual leave entitlement.  In fairness, Christmas there is just a religious festival (for those so orientated) and not a period for trying to test whether alcohol producers can keep up with demand.

Boxing Day is not a religious holiday, the origin is a holiday for the workers and servants it was where the "Lords and Masters" gave there servants "boxes" with gifts in this could be money, food, clothing the servants had their Christmas Day the after Christmas

[TaplowGreen]

There should be a Boxing Day service no question - other public services are expected to operate so why should the railways be any different?

If it's down to outdated agreements with Trade Unions from the 1970s then renegotiate them and/or tear them up.......then again that may lead to the ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) London Underground solution to not wanting to work on Boxing Day ie going on strike every year! 

[Electric train]

There should be a Boxing Day service no question - other public services are expected to operate so why should the railways be any different?

If it's down to outdated agreements with Trade Unions from the 1970s then renegotiate them and/or tear them up.......then again that may lead to the ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) London Underground solution to not wanting to work on Boxing Day ie going on strike every year! 

The current contracts of employment for the vast majority of Railway employees are modern driven through by the privatisation process of the "enlighten" 1990's.   There are too many companies involved now to get a uniformed approach to this, while one company may get an agreement another may not, so you could see Xcountry trains running but not stopping at Reading because FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are not working.

D(a)fT will have to change franchise contracts, in many cases the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s will have to sign up to a new access agreement with NR^» (Network Rail - home page) and finally you would have to get the employees to agree to work Boxing Day which for those working that day would mean no alcoholic drinks Christmas Day, they would have to turn into work at 04:00 Boxing Day to get a service running for 07:00 unless of course everyone accepts first trains at 10:00.

[HexDriver]

One aspect people have forgotten particularly on the eastern end of the line is there is major crossrail engineering work scheduled every christmas for the next couple of years, so thats likely to mean there will be no service in the next couple of years. This year for example theres been resignalling in the acton area and there are other major projects in the pipeline.

Also as crossrail is going to be a new company i wouldn't be surprised if they included christmas day and boxing day in staff contracts much the same way heathrow express do now.

[paul7575]

Also as crossrail is going to be a new company i wouldn't be surprised if they included christmas day and boxing day in staff contracts much the same way heathrow express do now.

I can foresee this being a significant problem though, because surely a significant majority of Crossrail staff will be TUPE^▸ (The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006.)'d across into the new 'TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'.  Greater Anglia have already been required by their current franchise agreement to set up a completely separate and discrete 'business unit' for their Liverpool St - Shenfield service, including all relevant backroom staff as well as the drivers, because they are all to be transferred into Crossrail lock stock and barrel. All this has to happen within a year or two, but well before the new stock arrives, so I'd think those people will all expect to keep their current T&Cs?

The current railway seems to have more than a few areas where merged staff are on separate T&Cs depending on where they came from; doesn't Northern still get managed effectively as two sub-TOCs, for east and west of the Pennines, and harmonisation was abandoned some time ago?

Paul

[HexDriver]

Also as crossrail is going to be a new company i wouldn't be surprised if they included christmas day and boxing day in staff contracts much the same way heathrow express do now.

I can foresee this being a significant problem though, because surely a significant majority of Crossrail staff will be TUPE^▸ (The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006.)'d across into the new 'TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'.  Greater Anglia have already been required by their current franchise agreement to set up a completely separate and discrete 'business unit' for their Liverpool St - Shenfield service, including all relevant backroom staff as well as the drivers, because they are all to be transferred into Crossrail lock stock and barrel. All this has to happen within a year or two, but well before the new stock arrives, so I'd think those people will all expect to keep their current T&Cs?

The current railway seems to have more than a few areas where merged staff are on separate T&Cs depending on where they came from; doesn't Northern still get managed effectively as two sub-TOCs, for east and west of the Pennines, and harmonisation was abandoned some time ago?

Paul

Was actually thinking more in terms of the heathrow drivers that move over as crossrail will be taking over the current connect services, these drivers are already contracted to work christmas day and boxing day and would in time be joined by new entrants to the industry.

Yes its not a perfect solution having staff on different contracts but if managed correctly its workable.

[EBrown]

Seeing as that page is to do with how busy services are it makes sense there isn't timetable info.

Look Ollie - see what I see on the first page of your website. This is what every user sees when they visit your website. Where the flying **** do you think they might chose to look for service information over Christmas? Maybe, just maybe the link that says "Plan your Christmas Travel Early".



That then takes them to a page which information on it that is clearly misleading to most users:

Services departing from Friday 21st - 28th December

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have failed to provide any clear information on this. I shouldn't have to root through media centre releases from November to find this information should I.

[Ollie]

Front page of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site to say: "Trains over Christmas"
Until 23rd December - normal service
24th December - Weekday services, some routes finishing early
25th December - NO SERVICE
26th December - NO SERVICE
27th December - Modified Saturday service
etc

Ollie, those change sheets are VERY useful ... but what's the criteria for inclusion?  As far as I can gather, TransWilts services (I looked up Melksham to Swindon) will be running as follows:

Melksham to Swindon

08:00 -> 08:31 (Not Thursday?)
18:17 -> 18:41

Swindon to Melksham

08:35 -> 09:01
18:44 -> 19:11

and that's only one of the four trains in its normal slot.    The printed timetable / standard .pdfs don't contain these, the update .pdf you pointed at doesn't - the only way I could work the out was by doing ticket / timetable searches.   Actually the times are rather nice, but if they're hidden away, no-ones going to know about them.

I can see where you are coming from Graham.

I'm not sure about the pdf inclusion. I will ask the guy who does them.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks, Ollie. 

[stationstop]

Seeing as that page is to do with how busy services are it makes sense there isn't timetable info.

Look Ollie - see what I see on the first page of your website. This is what every user sees when they visit your website. Where the flying **** do you think they might chose to look for service information over Christmas? Maybe, just maybe the link that says "Plan your Christmas Travel Early".



That then takes them to a page which information on it that is clearly misleading to most users:

Services departing from Friday 21st - 28th December

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have failed to provide any clear information on this. I shouldn't have to root through media centre releases from November to find this information should I.

Big and clever getting sweary over a timetable is it?