Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

The major problem would be sussing out the likely demand, which I'd suggest would very quickly be higher than a standard Saturday. Think the complaints of overfull trains/unable to board would be far worse than the complaints being made now!

Pax would expect cheap tickets too, super off-peaks & lower advance fares, thus making it a very much loss-leader for the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), especially when the unions would want top-dollar benefits 3xwages plus day off in lieu I'd suggest the demand would be, maybe also volunteer labour only).

Basically the tax-payer will be paying the TOCs through their franchises.

Is it really worth it? When major routes would need bustitution too? Would volunteer labour be willing to staff these?

In terms of sussing out likely demand.....well it doesn't seem to bother them for the rest of the year, in the event of overcrowding the usual "there's no more stock available" excuse would no doubt be trotted out?

I think that people are generally accepting, albeit grudgingly of the need to suspend services for large scale engineering works. I think that (quite rightly) they would be less understanding of an explanation along the lines of "we're not going to run a Boxing Day service because it would cost us too much" - by all means limit the availability of "cheap" tickets, that would be legitimate and pay generous overtime..........double time would seem appropriate?

Most other major transport providers and indeed other service industries seem able to provide a service on Boxing Day and go the extra mile for their customers, I'm not sure why the railways should be any different (......engineering works notwithstanding)......unless we're still in the realms of an organisation run for the benefit of staff rather than customers?

[John R]

Limiting cheap tickets would just result in more bad publicity, along the lines of "Rip off rail companies..." etc, etc.

In the same way that when GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) restrict GroupSave when a football team has got through to Wembley, they are accused of ripping off supporters, forgetting that those same supporters will probably have paid a small fortune for their ticket, but clearly can't afford to pay the cost of a normal train fare to get there.

[a-driver]

Running an extensive timetable on Boxing Day will merely increase the risk of fatigue related incidents. I can hardly see drivers going to bed during the afternoon on Christmas Day whilst festivities are in full swing and obtaining a decent amount of uninterrupted sleep to ensure they can operate trains safely on Boxing Day.
Having said that, there will be drivers who have no families who would volunteer to work Boxing Day but probably not nearly enough to run a significant service. In fact we have volunteer drivers booking on for duty on both Christmas Day and Boxing Day to start the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) up in order to prevent flat batteries and defrosting duties.

[ellendune]

Most other major transport providers and indeed other service industries seem able to provide a service on Boxing Day and go the extra mile for their customers, I'm not sure why the railways should be any different (......engineering works notwithstanding)......unless we're still in the realms of an organisation run for the benefit of staff rather than customers?

I think trains in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) are run for the benefit of passenger subject to the whims of DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and the Treasury who will have to pay if Boxing Day services are not profitable so they will decide ultimately. 

Evidence suggests that government care little for their own staff so why should they care for the staff of Network Rail and the Train Operators? 

If an employer is seeking unskilled or skilled labour in a market where that there is no shortage, then they can disregard the feelings of staff and just about get away with it.  However they may find that staff do not treat their job seriously and customer service may suffer. 

However, in a market where skills are in short supply, employers would do well to treat their staff well otherwise they will find that they leave and they cannot be replaced easily. They then find they have staff shortages which puts an increasing burden on the remain staff - a vicious circles then starts.  (An example here is the NHS where the outcome is reliance on expensive agency staff at great cost).

In short treating your staff well makes good business sense in the long term. However many employers (governments especially) seem only to live for the short term.   

[TaplowGreen]

Running an extensive timetable on Boxing Day will merely increase the risk of fatigue related incidents. I can hardly see drivers going to bed during the afternoon on Christmas Day whilst festivities are in full swing and obtaining a decent amount of uninterrupted sleep to ensure they can operate trains safely on Boxing Day.
Having said that, there will be drivers who have no families who would volunteer to work Boxing Day but probably not nearly enough to run a significant service. In fact we have volunteer drivers booking on for duty on both Christmas Day and Boxing Day to start the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) up in order to prevent flat batteries and defrosting duties.

I think it's probably down to self discipline? My cousin is a BA^» (British Airways - about) pilot and his roster meant that he often had to forego ale on Christmas Day and/or have an early night, it didn't seem to spoil his or his family's enjoyment. I'm sure (I hope!) that train drivers would act in the same responsible manner out of consideration for their customers & colleagues?  Anyhow this is a circular argument that is done to death every year.....probably not an issue in the West until all the major engineering is complete.....shall we reconvene around 2040? 

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, drivers, and other staff, seem to be disciplined enough to turn up for early shifts on New Years Day.  I don't see how that differs from getting up for Boxing Day?

I think any efforts for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should wait until the current major upgrades are completed though.  Looking at all the possessions this year there would have been no meaningful service that could have operated without extensive bus replacements.

[grahame]

To suggest that there's an added risk of fatigue-related accidents on Boxing Day rather questions the professionalism of rail staff, and I would be amazed if it were the case - indeed, if it were the case, then we would have other much mor serious problems.   Where there may be an issue is in finding staff ready, willing and able to provide the services.

On engineering works, I would classify them as cause and effect of the shutdown.  Those which are causal may include (for example) a relay of the tracks between London Bridge and Borough Market Junction, where there's simply no easy alternative to a complete shutdown for a period.  Those whihc are effectual are works that are done at this time of year because it's a convenient stoppage when actually they could be done at another time - for example, the lifting into place of a replacement bridge span over a two day period which could, I suspect, have equally been doen when the line was shut for 2 days for resignalling a month or so back.

At the current time, though, the idea of rescheduling 'effect works' that are already on the calendar for 26th December 2016 probaly wouldn't be a good one - yet another reason to be given for late deliveries and cost overruns on huge projects; pragmatically we should accept it for another handful of years, and look to having a Boxing Day service as a 'deliverable' as electrification and stock cascades come through?

I'm in little doubt in my mind that there would, in the current age, be good traffic levels on a 26th December service - though it might be variable year upon year.   This year, it was a Saturday - next year, a Monday ... in 2017, a Tuesday and - although the days of the week are overwhelmed by the tidal wave of Christmas around this time, there is some effect and othere differing waves around the edges as the normal 7 day cycle changes to a few exceptional days and back to the cycle in the new year. 

This modern expectation of traffic on 26th December is in contrast to what was observed at around the time of the removal of the previous service some 40 years ago.  And one of the reasons given in those days was the cost of staffing all the signal boxes along the way for just a handful of trains.  That excuse is largely gone; in our area, I think we still have signal boxes along the main line in Cornwall - for perhaps a couple of years. Crediton might need staffing to cover a small area?   And there could be a few more.

What would be the traffic? People visiting relatives. Sales shopping. Sporting events. I only have the knowledge to take a local(ish) look at this and how it would work out;  I would see TransWilts as running with an 08:00 Westbury to Swindon, with the train then heading down to Salisbury, back to Westbury and cycling at 11:00, 14:00, 17:00 and 20:00, back into Westbury to close play arriving at 21:40 from Swindon.

As I write, noting this morning's restart issues:

07:11 Gatwick Airport to Reading due 08:35
This train will be started from Redhill.
This train will no longer call at Gatwick Airport.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers.

08:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Waterloo due 11:54
This train will be started from Bristol Temple Meads.
This train will no longer call at Weston-super-Mare, Worle, Yatton and Nailsea & Backwell.
This is due to this train being late from the depot.

Somewhere, I noted a comment that we've done this subject to death over the years (paraphrasing). To some extend we have, because it will go away and be off the headlines come the New Year - just back for the short term next Christmas, when really it needs a long term view to be taken.  But it's not exeactly the same subject each time - things are changing / melding and we may not see a sudden change, but yet nothing has turned at Chiltern into a London to Bicester serivce, to a London to Oxford Parkway service, and perhaps next year to a London to Oxford service.  And as electrification goes live out from Paddington, perhaps the electic lines, and a few connections, will come along too.

[a-driver]

This Christmas Day I had my little kids running a mock playing with their new presents which created some degree of noise in our household. In late evening I am
supposed to ask my kids to pack everything and be quiet in order that Dad can sleep.
I also spent most of the day joining in and having fun with my kids. This isn't an ideal way to prepare your body for sleep and I would say it would be almost impossible to switch off once in bed. 
Recently in the press there have been incidents involving freight trains in the Reading area which have been attributed to fatigure. It is a big issue within the industry and I don't think we should be implementing working patterns which increases that risk.

[TaplowGreen]

This Christmas Day I had my little kids running a mock playing with their new presents which created some degree of noise in our household. In late evening I am
supposed to ask my kids to pack everything and be quiet in order that Dad can sleep.
I also spent most of the day joining in and having fun with my kids. This isn't an ideal way to prepare your body for sleep and I would say it would be almost impossible to switch off once in bed. 
Recently in the press there have been incidents involving freight trains in the Reading area which have been attributed to fatigure. It is a big issue within the industry and I don't think we should be implementing working patterns which increases that risk.

If they're little kids and its late in the evening then yes, it'd be reasonable to ask them to be quiet in these circumstances.

These are no different to the challenges faced by anyone who works in a safety critical environment, sorry but to use them as a reason for not providing a service on the nation's railways is frankly laughable......if you put them forward in the public arena you'd be laughed off the stage.

[a-driver]

Late in the evening??  We're talking of going to bed at 16:00 on Christmas Day to obtain the advised amount of sleep required to start a shift at just after midnight. There is no way you could get to 16:00 and then just cancel the rest of Christmas and the house will fall silent. There is no way if you're a father/mother of young children that you would even have enough time to wind down in order to prepare yourself for sleep. 

Preparing trains isn't a case of just arriving at the depot, starting the engines and driving straight off into the station. They all need preparing and depots are the most dangerous of working environments. 

If I were to put them forward in a public arena I would get laughed at as very few understand the role and the effects of fatigue. Freight drivers have long campaigned against the effects of unsocial hours and the effect this has on them to safely perform there duties.
I'm not saying there should be no services running on Boxing Day. I think there will be in time i just think you need to be very careful on how you implement it. It should be on a volunteer basis only.

[grahame]

I'm not saying there should be no services running on Boxing Day. I think there will be in time i just think you need to be very careful on how you implement it. It should be on a volunteer basis only.

I totally agree that we need to be careful how we implement it, and that the services should be run by people who want to run those services.  I suspect we all have considerable commonality of view here.

[ellendune]

We live in a consumer society where we have come to believe that every service we want should be provided with little or no thought to the people who have to provide those services. It would be nice to have trains on boxing day, but do we really need it? 

Christmas is a season of good will to all.  So how about some good will to those who work to provide a train service for us the rest of the year.

Let us not forget those who are doing the engineering work over Christmas, who will not be with their families. 

[didcotdean]

Boxing Day trains with anything like a full service finally ended in the 1980s - generally put forward as one of the most consumerist decades ever.

The full TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Sunday-style bus service on Boxing Day carries approximately 80% of passengers overall compared with a typical Sunday. Present estimates indicate a similar service on Christmas Day would run at roughly 30% which is too low to fulfil the benefit to cost criteria.

I would be interested to see a survey of rail users as to potential usage of a Boxing Day service either locally or for longer distances.

[John R]

It would be nice to have trains on boxing day, but do we really need it? 

Possibly, when the next day is a normal working day. Some people will need to return home to start work the following day. So a limited service of long distance services starting up mid afternoon could provide a socially useful service (engineering work notwithstanding). However, I have a lot of sympathy for the view that just because people want to go sales shopping/watch football on Boxing Day the railway shouldn't feel obliged to meet that demand. Both of those are discretionary activities.

[TaplowGreen]

It would be nice to have trains on boxing day, but do we really need it? 

However, I have a lot of sympathy for the view that just because people want to go sales shopping/watch football on Boxing Day the railway shouldn't feel obliged to meet that demand. Both of those are discretionary activities.

I think that sums up the railways attitude to its customers to a tee and perfectly illustrates the complacency of a monopoly supplier - if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) faced real competition you'd all get an almighty fright!

In the real world, if a business doesn't seek to meet the demands of its customers and they have a choice they will simply go elsewhere and that business will cease trading very swiftly - what is a business there for if not to meet its customers demands, discretionary or otherwise?

Notwithstanding the (perfectly understandable) desires of staff to spend the Christmas break with their families, not work on Sundays unless they wish to etc, the World has moved on from the 1970s and many of these terms, conditions and the attitudes/cultures they have bred belong there. I struggle to think of any service industries who still operate on this basis, apart from the Civil Service perhaps but even that is changing.

Anyway, I am eagerly anticipating the no doubt flawless return to something approaching normal working for LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) services into Paddington tomorrow morning!!!

Enjoy the remainder of Xmas/festive season!