Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Rhydgaled]

In my view, not running trains on Boxing Day is like picking a Sunday in February, cancelling the entire train service and not providing replacement buses.

Through fares and taxes, we all pay a lot for the railways  (and most are happy to do so) - closing the railways on Boxing Day and not giving people without a car the chance to travel that day is an anachronism that has to end.

Closing down almost the entire rural bus network one day in every 7 and leaving pepole without a car stranded isn't too great either. To be honest, given the choice of introducing Boxing Day services or making every bus route have a decent Sunday service in addition to weekdays and Saturdays I would say the Sunday service is more important to have. Some rail lines, including my nearest (Fishguard), also have little or no Sunday service.

Given the amount of engineering that happens during the "shutdown", I wonder how the public would feel being further disrupted through the year if engineering has to be done over several disrupted weekends, rather than getting it done in one period of 48 hours?

They could run 'rail replacement' road transport on Boxing Day and still have the engineering time without making pepole car dependant if they need to travel that day (I'm assuming the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) not listed as providing a Boxing Day rail service don't current run anything, either on road or rail). And presumably they can't be working on the entire network at once, so trains would still be able to run where work isn't talking place.

[IndustryInsider]

......I've got to try to get from Reading to Newport to watch the mighty Plymouth Argyle!

Reading to Newport is possible - see attachment ... not sure how many fans will be able to get on though.  On the other hand, Reading's not going to be the main starting points for Plymouth or Newport fans, is it?

Blimey - ^70 for the privilege of a 4 hour coach journey if you want to get there before noon!

Even a random date in February and the cheapest you can get is on National Express is ^48.50 as opposed to ^15 by train arriving at the same time - and that involves departing almost 3 hours later!

[grahame]

Somehow I guessed that just posting up a list of where in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) trains would be running on Boxing Day, which I did just 40 hours ago, would lead to a fascinating discussion with strongly held views which don't all match up with each other.

Being just one day in the year, it gets great coverage in the second half of December, and generates close to zero interest of the other 23/24ths of the year, so I guess it's not going to be high up anyone's list.

A couple of answers / thoughts based on recent comment

To be honest, given the choice of introducing Boxing Day services or making every bus route have a decent Sunday service in addition to weekdays and Saturdays I would say the Sunday service is more important to have.

I think that's a hypothetical choice - no tradeoff between the two things.

Given the amount of engineering that happens during the "shutdown", I wonder how the public would feel being further disrupted through the year if engineering has to be done over several disrupted weekends, rather than getting it done in one period of 48 hours?

Christmas and New Year is - undoubtedly - a sensible time to do major engineering stuff, but I'll admit to always having been puzzled as to where all the extra engineers come from to work on almost every line.


And also ...

I note comment about what the fares would be / whether it would be "profitable".  To a degree, that's a question of "mess on mess" ... the current peak / off peak designations are arcane at times, and counter-obvious.   The 06:12 from Swindon to Chippenham during the week is a peak service, with around 20% loading - yet the 14:50 from Chippenham to Swindon on a Sunday is super-offpeak, and with loading around 120%. Does it need someone with guts who's not answerable to / working for an elected politician with a 5 year term to sort out things like this?

The railways have bee structured to provide competition between providers of train services, right?      So - over the years, Boxing Day services on a strategic network to provide major coverage, with the network changing on where the major works are needed.    As an example for this year, Euston / West Coast main line is closed, Reading is closed (except that Real Time Trains shows ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) on Christmas day to / from Wimbledon and Staines!).  So could ... main line services / regular operator could run Marylebone to Birmingham, Waterloo to Exeter and Bristol via Salisbury.  Another year when there's work on the Basingstoke flyover, a different pattern.   Ironically, by having such a controlled works / shutdown there would be less pressure on just two days of work, and perhaps a chance to get more done over 3 or 4 days.

I'm noting the argument that almost all of the traffic on Boxing day would be leisure and thus (!) not so important. I've noted a surprising number of people using the train around here to get to work in Sundays, indeed often in those places others go for leisure, or in the caring industry or medical, and I would ask why those who say that Boxing day would be "virtually all leisure" see it as being different to Sundays.

Also noting that "everyone who wants Christmas off should be allowed it".  Whilst that's actually our policy (I look after a 365 day business), I'm not so sure that too many people would be happy for A&E to shut for a day or two so that the team there could all spend the day with family.  The question may be an academic one - we have no problem having sufficient cover over this period, though I will admit to a willingness to take shifts myself which due to our small size significantly skews availability.

I've no answers here - just thoughts and can appreciate all sides of the arguments.   I don't expect anything will greatly change quickly, as it's just the one day or two and come January it will be all forgotten about for another 11 months, after which we'll have the same discussion again.   I'm not discouraging that discussion, just discouraged that not much will change!

[Super Guard]

Given the amount of engineering that happens during the "shutdown", I wonder how the public would feel being further disrupted through the year if engineering has to be done over several disrupted weekends, rather than getting it done in one period of 48 hours?

They could run 'rail replacement' road transport on Boxing Day and still have the engineering time without making pepole car dependant if they need to travel that day (I'm assuming the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) not listed as providing a Boxing Day rail service don't current run anything, either on road or rail). And presumably they can't be working on the entire network at once, so trains would still be able to run where work isn't talking place.

I'm not trying to be purposely difficult, but where are we finding a nationwide fleet of rail replacement coaches to do this for one day a year?  We're not talking one engineering possession here.

[Rhydgaled]

Given the amount of engineering that happens during the "shutdown", I wonder how the public would feel being further disrupted through the year if engineering has to be done over several disrupted weekends, rather than getting it done in one period of 48 hours?

They could run 'rail replacement' road transport on Boxing Day and still have the engineering time without making pepole car dependant if they need to travel that day (I'm assuming the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) not listed as providing a Boxing Day rail service don't current run anything, either on road or rail). And presumably they can't be working on the entire network at once, so trains would still be able to run where work isn't talking place.

I'm not trying to be purposely difficult, but where are we finding a nationwide fleet of rail replacement coaches to do this for one day a year?  We're not talking one engineering possession here.

!!!! Just how many possessions are there at once on Boxing Day?

[ChrisB]

No one likes rail replacement anyhow!

The NHS saves lives. The railway simply moves pax about. Not a sendible comparison?

[grahame]

The NHS saves lives. The railway simply moves pax about. Not a sendible comparison?

Probably not a very good comparison, Chris ... I was following up earlier in answer to your post in which you lumped everyone who works together:

I don't think enough staff want to work...and its completely unfair IMO^▸ (in my opinion) to force anyone to over Christmas.

[ChrisB]

We are a *rail* or at least a Oublic transport forum. Thus I think it's reasonable to suggest that referring to *everyone* on this board, unless stated otherwise, refers to everyone working within those industries, not everyone on the country/world

[Surrey 455]

Blimey - ^70 for the privilege of a 4 hour coach journey if you want to get there before noon!

Even a random date in February and the cheapest you can get is on National Express is ^48.50 as opposed to ^15 by train arriving at the same time - and that involves departing almost 3 hours later!

That does surprise me. I would have expected the fares to be the reverse so that coach was cheaper. Very odd.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Bristol Post:

Remember to fuel your car: No trains in Bristol on Boxing Day

There are no train services on Boxing Day in Bristol.

The Daily Mail reports that every single major artery on Britain's railways will remain closed on December 26, leaving millions stranded or pushing them onto the roads.

No trains will run between England and Scotland or Wales on the East Coast, West Coast or Great Western mainlines - and the Midland, Cross Country and East Anglia lines will also remain shut.

The near-non-existent service has returned this year despite a fierce political battle over the so-called Boxing Day shutdown dating back to at least 2007.

Virgin, First Great Western, Cross Country and Arriva Trains are not running services.

Only airport shuttles and Eurostar, only Chiltern, Scotrail, Southeastern and Southern will be running any trains on December 26.

The lack of service will affect football fans, families without cars and shop workers in the Boxing Day sales.

Purely out of idle curiosity on my part: why is there no similar 'outrage' over the absence of train services on Christmas Day? 

[Super Guard]

Given the amount of engineering that happens during the "shutdown", I wonder how the public would feel being further disrupted through the year if engineering has to be done over several disrupted weekends, rather than getting it done in one period of 48 hours?

They could run 'rail replacement' road transport on Boxing Day and still have the engineering time without making pepole car dependant if they need to travel that day (I'm assuming the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) not listed as providing a Boxing Day rail service don't current run anything, either on road or rail). And presumably they can't be working on the entire network at once, so trains would still be able to run where work isn't talking place.

I'm not trying to be purposely difficult, but where are we finding a nationwide fleet of rail replacement coaches to do this for one day a year?  We're not talking one engineering possession here.

!!!! Just how many possessions are there at once on Boxing Day?

I honestly don't know, but the Whiteball Tunnel possession between Exeter and Tiverton saw buses provided from Cornwall and Somerset and not just Devon.  You only had to see what happened when Dawlish collapsed to see rail replacement stretched to the limit when this possession was going on at the same time.

It may well be feasible, just pointing out why it may not be as simple to get coaches together.  Who knows what small possessions are taking place that require a few hours with a small team of workers, the line is still shut whether you're doing a mass-event like Reading/LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) or replacing a small section of track in Devon.  Yes most TOC staff are having a 2 day holiday, but I think people need to open their eyes to the fact that Network Rail will take advantage and do as much work as possible during the shut-down, so not to cause greater inconvenience during the other 363 days of the year.

If the network was fully open, this would be a much different discussion, but I cannot see (even beyond 2019) how NR^» (Network Rail - home page) will not want the opportunity to close whatever parts of the network it wants to get stuff done, without the pressure of providing the service whether it's buses or trains.  I know many of you will think i'm just anti-customer/anti-service industry, but our network needs the TLC^▸ (three letter code ) and NR needs the flexibility, and moving customers for football and shopping in my view will not win the argument where NR is concerned.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks for posting, Super Guard, and your comments are pertinent.  I am not railway staff, but I do see what you are explaining. 

[ellendune]

It may well be feasible, just pointing out why it may not be as simple to get coaches together.  Who knows what small possessions are taking place that require a few hours with a small team of workers, the line is still shut whether you're doing a mass-event like Reading/LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) or replacing a small section of track in Devon.  Yes most TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) staff are having a 2 day holiday, but I think people need to open their eyes to the fact that Network Rail will take advantage and do as much work as possible during the shut-down, so not to cause greater inconvenience during the other 363 days of the year.

If the network was fully open, this would be a much different discussion, but I cannot see (even beyond 2019) how NR^» (Network Rail - home page) will not want the opportunity to close whatever parts of the network it wants to get stuff done, without the pressure of providing the service whether it's buses or trains.  I know many of you will think i'm just anti-customer/anti-service industry, but our network needs the TLC^▸ (three letter code ) and NR needs the flexibility, and moving customers for football and shopping in my view will not win the argument where NR is concerned.

I think some of my previous posts have been suggesting the railway industry was anti-customer or anti-service, but on this one I am with you.

[grahame]

We are a *rail* or at least a Oublic transport forum. Thus I think it's reasonable to suggest that referring to *everyone* on this board, unless stated otherwise, refers to everyone working within those industries, not everyone on the country/world

Being Christmas, we'll agree to differ on that view, Chris.

My most recent train journey - last Saturday - was on a train from Trowbridge to Melksham late in the morning.  There were around 60 people on that train.  Two of them for sure worked (and were working) in the rail industry, and the rest were passengers who could have worked within just about any field, or were in education, retired, out of work, or indeed too young to be doing any of those things.  As we are a passenger based forum, not an industry professional group (though we welcome those professionals, without whom we would be a sad shadow of what we are), I feel in my own writings that using "everyone" or "anyone" without qualification should refer to the 60 people not to the 2.

[ChrisB]

Especially as Boxing Day football have taken place for decades, and until very recently (in terms of Boxing Day football), no complaints about lack of trains