200 new coaches to be brought forward

[whole diary]

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

what about a bike rack on the back of the train hehehehehe, that could be fun?

[willc]

I can understand your problem with bikes, but it's not the bikes that's the problem but the design of the train where brake van space has been sacrificed for seats and shorter untis.

DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) IC^▸ (Inter City) DVTs^‡(resolve) have 30  bike spaces which can be reserved plus seating for the riders and a smashing view of the railway out of the cab.

But brake van space was provided for lucrative parcels and mail traffic, most of which has gone from the railway, so there's no need to provide that space any more and while most German IC and regional trains have cycle spaces (inidicated by a bike symbol on timetables), the ICE sets which operate the key express routes do not carry cycles at all.

[Tim]

while most German IC^▸ (Inter City) and regional trains have cycle spaces (inidicated by a bike symbol on timetables), the ICE sets which operate the key express routes do not carry cycles at all.

But those routes are also covered by good frequent and not that much slower bike-carrying RE^▸ (Religious Education) or IC trains are they not?

[eightf48544]

while most German IC^▸ (Inter City) and regional trains have cycle spaces (inidicated by a bike symbol on timetables), the ICE sets which operate the key express routes do not carry cycles at all.

But those routes are also covered by good frequent and not that much slower bike-carrying RE^▸ (Religious Education) or IC trains are they not?

Yes they are you usually get on the lesser routes a two hourly ICE/IC and a two hourly RE in the the other  hour. So you usually have a choice of an fast comfatable ICE at higher price and no bikes unless it's an IC and a bike carrying RE whch are equally comfortable ( so long as they are locohauled, I'm afraid DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) is subcumming to DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) itis) and on which 5 of you can travel on a Lander ticket for around 30 Euros or 6 Euros each.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

i wonder if the network was electrified would pushing more frieght to rail ie parcels if this would work out cheeper for the companys

[tramway]

Personally I have a few concerns about losing the 158's and being replaced with a super 150. 1/3 2/3 openings on a planned 'intercity' service would be a retrograde step, why would SWT^▸ (South West Trains) etc be trying to get hold of any spare 158 going.

Are there any new builds with end doors?

The problem is that many of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s services these days have to cover a mix of commuter and long-distance needs in the same journey and for the bits with heavy commuter flows, 1/3 and 2/3 doors keep station dwell times to a minimum.

The station times of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), Adelantes and Voyagers at the likes of Reading and Oxford in the peaks can be horrendous - and the same applies to 158s when I've used them elsewhere - whereas Turbos load and unload fast, so any extra stock coming to Thames Valley routes really does need 1/3, 2/3 doors. And I'm guessing that on Cardiff-Portsmouth, they would come in very handy for the big city calls in the peaks. The 185s have 1/3, 2/3 doors due to the heavy commuter traffic in TransPennine's area.

If you fit the right quality of interior, you can still give a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) the right feel for longer-distance work. I don't think anyone's envisaging 3+2 seating on Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Not thinking 185's here but would an underfloor powered 444 be feasible as a long distance choice, same format as a 5 car with a centre buffet etc etc. Would make a great inter regional.

[willc]

DafT issued the formal invitation to tender for the 200 DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) coaches today.

Lengthening the 185s is definitely off the agenda, the ^2m per coach price tag probably had something to do with that.

The pre-qualified bidders are Bombardier; CAF of Spain, who built the Class 332 Heathrow Express sets and their sister 333s for Yorkshire plus new DMUs for Northern Ireland - picture of these here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Belfast_Central2.jpg; CSRE Ltd on behalf of CSR^▸ (Cab Secure Radio) Nanjing Puzhen of China, who were mentioned when Northern talked about buying new Chinese DMUS a while back; and Hyundai Rotem of South Korea.

[gwr2006]

As the government announcement to bring forward these 200 vehciles was all about stimulating the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) economy, let's hope Bombardier get the contract so it keeps their Derby production line going after they've delivered the class 378 EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)/class 172 DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) to London Overground and class 172's to London Midland and Chiltern Railways, and it will keep people in their jobs in the UK.

[John R]

It does seem bizarre that at the same time as they announce the bringing forward, to help stimulate the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) economy, there is encouragement to foreign builders (including some who have never built for the UK market) to try and enter the market.

Likewise, the announcement at the same time that the recently pared back quadrification of the North London would go ahead after all has been clarified that it won't happen until after the 2012 Olympics,  if it happens at all. Hardly a boost to the economy if it won't happen for 4 years. 

[willc]

As the government announcement to bring forward these 200 vehciles was all about stimulating the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) economy, let's hope Bombardier get the contract so it keeps their Derby production line going after they've delivered the class 378 EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)/class 172 DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) to London Overground and class 172's to London Midland and Chiltern Railways, and it will keep people in their jobs in the UK.

It's all about the fine traditions of British railway procurement - and EU^» (European Union - about) rules which say you have to have open bidding (unless you're French...) - of using rivals to try to screw down the price from the people whose kit you really want. Problem is you can end up with things like FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s batch of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars with GEC traction motors, rather than the usual Brush ones, which are all allocated to Landore in Swansea to get the extra tlc they need.

[willc]

Was reminded by the new Modern Railways that Hyundai Rotem actually have experience of building for the British Isles, in the shape of new inter-city and commuter configured 22000 Class DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) for the Irish Republic, while CAF also supplied IE with DMUs, pictures and details here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Units_of_Ireland

Modern Railways also says a couple of DafT officials recently visited Ireland - wonder what they were looking at? Price-wise the Chinese and Koreans are said to be able to supply at just under ^1m per coach, and CAF just over ^1m, while Class 172 cars are about ^1.4m each at the moment. See what I mean about applying price pressure on Bombardier?

The bidders have been asked to tender for 200 to 250 coaches, with options for another 100, though the magazine says that Siemens will still be asked to build 24 more 185 coaches... suppose things might be clearer come March, when the order for the 200, or whatever it ends up as, is due be made.

[tramway]

The republic railways have little to do with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), and the funding for their infrastructure shortly to be curtailed once Euro money comes to an end. Hardly serious railway country.

[willc]

The republic railways have little to do with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), and the funding for their infrastructure shortly to be curtailed once Euro money comes to an end. Hardly serious railway country.

Is this the same country? Quadruple-tracking the main line west out of Dublin for a good few miles, reopening lines in the Dublin area and in the west of the country, a rolling stock fleet which has been almost completely renewed in the past decade, resignalling of the whole network, a new cross-city tunnel under Dublin - this isn't a serious railway? Sounds like the kind of thing we could do with in England.

Little to do with the UK? The British created the network and its operating practices, until recently DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and coaches came from Britain (hence the fleet of Mk3s up for sale) and the boss of Iarnrod Eireann, Dick Fearn, was a senior BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) manager - he ran the Thames & Chiltern Network South East services before privatisation - then worked for Connex and Railtrack before going to Ireland.

The kit under the floor of the Hyundai sets would look awfully familiar to any fitter used to working on Class 170s - an MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) engine and Voith transmission - a serious industry-standard piece of kit. At current prices you're looking at almost three CAF/Rotem/Chinese cars to two Class 172s and whatever has been said about supporting British industry, Bombardier has got some serious thinking to do about its costs.

[paul7575]

As the government announcement to bring forward these 200 vehciles was all about stimulating the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) economy, let's hope Bombardier get the contract so it keeps their Derby production line going after they've delivered the class 378 EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)/class 172 DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) to London Overground and class 172's to London Midland and Chiltern Railways, and it will keep people in their jobs in the UK.

Don't forget also about all the London Underground SSL^▸ (Short Swing Link bogies (125)) trains they are already building, the FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect)/SN 377/5 Electrostars  and then the Thameslink EMUs is an order they'll want, oh and then there's IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) joint with Siemens.  They (by sheer numbers) are probably far more important orders for Bombardier. 

Obviously great for them if they get every order, but do they have enough capacity? There already seem to be delays to the current 377 and 378 builds, there aren't as many about under test (for LO and FCC) as suggested in recent months...

Paul

[r james]

I personnaly say give all remaining 170s to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express), and give TPE more new trains to replace those, wich are of a required length/.