The ^327 rail ticket from Bath to Northallerton

[whole diary]

[John R]

There seems to be a degree of criticism on this thread ... of travellers who haven't booked ahead / haven't found the lowest fare.   I'm not sure if such criticism is justified - after all, not everyone can be an expert in everything, and you need to be an expert in fares to get a decent priced ticket sometimes.

I have started a new thread on this ... see
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3918.0

Whilst I understand your point Graham, I feel that anyone who courts publicity in the way that Mr Mayell did must do so in the knowledge that others may choose to criticise their comments. Yes, this group is probably better versed than the average person on fares, but I think most people know that the railway does operate (rightly or wrongly) a very complex fare structure. And so a little bit of due diligence is reasonable when undertaking an unfamiliar journey. All he had to do was phone NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service) the day before, and then when quoted ^300+ ask "Is there anything cheaper".  That hardly requires you to be an expert, does it?   

[Btline]

I agree with John R.

If he had researched around (a trip to NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast).com or a phone call) and STILL got a ridiculous fare - then go to the press.

NXEC even allow you to search through the slower routes - you can almost always lower the price. I lowered a fare to Bristol from ^30 to ^10 by doing this, and the ^10 ticket was actually more flexible!

[Super Guard]

I'd like to add, that I keep hearing about First Groups massive profits recently, but people forget that the increase is down to the profits from the US businesses that is acquired, rather than FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ploughing millions into Firsts' coffers.... trust me - we'd all expect hefty pay rises otherwise 

[devon_metro]

Btline, you mention that NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) website is so "amazing" despite the fact that you can do everything you said there on the fgwtickets.co.uk website.

Am I right in thinking that NXEC get a share of money if you book any tickets through their website, if so i continue to support my local operator not someone in the east!

[Phil]

I think I'm right in saying that the fgwtickets.co.uk software is actually not run by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) at all, but sublet to the ubiquitous thetrainline.com.

If that is indeed the case, then FGW will get exactly the same cut from each ticket sold there as they will from a ticket sold via NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast). Possibly even less.

[Super Guard]

I thought I read somewhere that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) get 9% of the ticket cost if it is booked through them rather than another operator?

[Btline]

The NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) website is far superior to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s!

You can pick the fare you want, and then scroll through every journey option, which is valid for that fare, and look at all the prices and times.

Or you can select the service you want and see the fare. It is then very easy to switch services to see which fares are unlocked, and to shift along the times to get the fare down.

Also very easy to mix and match return, single, first and second tickets.

THIS CAN ALL BE DONE WITHOUT RELOADING THE PAGE. You can almost always get the fare down.

On Fgw, you only get to see about 4 trains, and their prices. So to check other times you have to click several links to get there.

FGW do not show "locked" fares, so you do not know that there is a cheaper option hiding!

And I don't care who get the cash. NX deserve it for such an excellent (award winning) system.

Oh - and with one click, you can add in the slower routes. Save more.

AND they have a "cheapest fare" calculator - difficult to describe well, try it - you'll see (v good for getting cheapest advance if you are flexible).

I have never looked back (unless I am wanting a GroupSave fare, or using a FGW discount code).

So: switch today, and save!

Visit http://nationalexpresseastcoast.com

[Tim]

Those people who are saying the chap was stupid to pay ^327 and that he could have travelled much cheaper if he had been smarter are absolutely right but they are also slightly missing the point.  If hardly anyone pays ^327 for that journey what does having such a high fare actually achieve other than generate bad press for the railway?  Given that so few people would actually be prepared to pay such a fare would lowering it in order to aviod bad publcity actually loose the operators any money

[eightf48544]

Out of interest I looked up the distance between Bath and Nothallerton by road which comes out at 258 miles one way or 516 return on Transport Direct. It also gave the direct fuel costs for a medium sized car as ^56 for which you could take another 3 people. No wonder he thought ^327 excessive.

However, if you look up the AA cost of motoring table:

http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp

The cost of running a medium priced car for 10000 miles a year comes out at 62.25 pence per mile which makes the journey cost ^321 or ^6 less. So not so much difference.

However, the real problem with the rail fare is that it is the cost per passenger, but by car it's the cost per journey so 4 people could happily make the journey for ^80.25p each.

So it's a "problem" for the "bean counters" do you price the standard fare at around 60 pence per mile per passenger to equal the car and driver only cost, or do you do rail at  a quarter or 15 pence per mile to equal the cost of the journey by car with 4 people.

If we are to encourage people out of their cars then 15 pence per mile would be a sensible option and give the return fare in this case of ^77.4 per pasenger.

If it costs more than 15 pence per seat mile to run a train then maybe those are costs that should be looked at and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) should not expect to get such big returns from the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company).

I think my arithmatic is in the right range. Any thoughts on formulea for setting standard turn up and go anytime single/return fares.

Is the ^327 fare a regulated one?

[Tim]

Is the ^327 fare a regulated one?

No.  It is an unregulated anytime (open) fare.  the equivalent regulated fare would be the off-peak (saver) which I assume wasn't valid at the time he wanted to travel. 

[dog box]

As this ticket was via LONDON i thnik you may need to do a spot of recalculations , try nearer 700 miles return.......incidentally a Stnd anytime return from Bath Spa to Thurso via London is ^440

[tramway]

I have no reason to dispute the AA figures, but if you go to any fares for a journey they will almost mirror the given cost, spooky or what.

ok they are for individual journeys' but I bet that there are tickets available, 2 for 1 etc which will match a car load for the equivalent journey.

[NICK]

Following an email from a couple of friends regarding comments on this forum I thought I should sign up and try to clarify the situation.

Just for the record, I am the individual who paid ^327 for the ticket to Northallerton. I felt the need to try to try and redress the balance, as there was a little more to this story than was reported.

I should firstly tell you that my job does require a great deal of travelling, all of which is usually done by car. However on the 10th November at 8.30pm I received a call from the North Yorks Police requesting my assistance. I needed to be in Northallerton by 12.30 the next day. I went upstairs and packed my bags for the trip, and at 9.30 called my boss to ask if I could, on this occasion take a train as I had only just got back home after driving all the way back from Holyhead in North Wales. He approved the trip, and by this time it was 10.30. All I wanted to do by now was get my head down for some shut eye.

I got up at 4.30 the next day and made my way to Bath station hoping to get an early train out, I arrived at the station at 5.30 and asked the ticket attendant for a standard day return to Northallerton. When he informed me that it would cost ^327 I thought it must he must have made a mistake. He rechecked the price with a colleague and confirmed that that was the correct price. I informed him that I needed to be in Northalleton by 12.30 at the latest, and I asked for some cheaper alternative trains. I was informed by the ticket attendant that the only way that I could get to my destination by 12.30, was to take the London train, as neither the off peak train via London or the Bristol train which involved 4 changes could not get me there on time.

My situation by now is as follows. I am stuck at Bath Spa railway station with no computer or any other means of checking that the information that the ticket attendant is giving me is correct. Having committed to helping the police and not wanting to let them down I was faced with no alternative, other than to pay this ridiculous fare. I didn^t want too, but I had no choice!

I would also like to say that I did not go to the press. When I took my expenses into the office the next day, I had to explain why I had spent so much on a train ticket. In disgust, it was our company secretary who forwarded the tickets to the Bath Chronicle, not me! She did this because First Great Western refused to reply to our emails justifying the price of the tickets. I later received a call from the press asking it they could send a reporter to photograph me and the tickets.

After it was published in the newspaper. I then received a call from Points West News asking me if I had heard that First Great Western had put there prices up a further 6%, and would I mind telling them my story as it was appropriate following the price increase. I agreed, but as you can imagine it was heavily edited and it left out certain facts like ^did I try to get a cheaper fare?^.

So to answer some of the criticism

Relex109, You are probably a decent person normally, but to describe someone that you don^t even know as ^Dumb^ or ^Stupid^ seems a little harsh! Of course I wouldn^t buy a tv without comparing prices, but then again I wouldn^t normally put myself in a position where I had only 15 minutes to decide which tv buy. As I have said, in this particular case I had no choice! 

Phil. You talk about learning a lesson. Well guess what? I have. And that lesson is to use the car. My job rarely affords me the time to book tickets in advance because most of my work is at very short notice, so I guess the for me the train in not a practical solution.

Dog Box. I didn^t want to go via London! The ticket office told me I had no choice if I needed to be in Northallerton by 12.30. Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong? I had no way to check at the time so I had to trust the man behind the ticket counter. You also commented on the trip being a round 700 miles because I went via London, as I said I wasn^t my choice. There wasn^t an alternative for that time of the day!

Vacman. Last Tuesday I was in Amsterdam and finished my work earlier than expected. I went to Schiphol airport to get a flight to Bristol. I booked it at the airport and it cost me ^79! Whilst I am on the subject of Holland. I went from Rotterdam to Amsterdam also last Tuesday. I paid for my train ticket on the day at the station and I was charged 18 euros! That trip took 1 hour 40 minutes and was approximately 120 miles. That was also at peak time! I think it puts UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail fares into perspective.

John R. Your absolutely right you don^t have to be an expert to ask if there is anything cheaper! I did ask, and there wasn^t. Maybe I should have called at 10.30 the night before, but should I really have been charged ^327 for not calling 7 hours earlier? I don^t think so.

Finally, its all very well working out how much the real cost of a car is when you take into account tax, MOT, insurance etc. But if you own a car anyway you are paying these costs whether your car is in the garage or on the road so surely you may as well drive?

As you have probably guessed, I am not a rail user. In fact I probably haven^t used a train in the UK for 10 years or more until last week. Judging by the amount of posts that you guys make you all seem keen rail users, and you obviously know your way around the system very well. Unfortunately I didn^t, but should I ever need the train again which is looking very unlikely I would but much more careful.

However, to get back to the real issue. Surely there can be nobody on this forum who can genuinely put their hand on their heart and say that ^327 for a standard return ticket to Northallerton is good value for money? Irrelevant whether or not you buy the ticket on the day! For this reason alone I don^t regret agreeing to going public about this matter. Even if some people think I was dumb or stupid. Who knows, if my story goes some way to bringing about a more fair and logical approach to rail fares, then it may just have been worth it.

It was not my intention to court controversy, but as an ordinary member of the public if I am to be teased out of my car there has to be an incentive. But from where I am standing I am struggling to find one at the moment. If I am to use trains for business I need to be able to go to a station at short notice, buy a ticket and jump on the train. Just as I do in Holland.

Do the forum members ever think I will be in a position to do this in the UK in the future?

Thank you for your time, and I hope you can now understand how I came to be in this bizarre situation.

Nick   



 

[Timmer]

Welcome to the forum Nick. Good to have you on board.

Firstly, many thanks for posting to the forum your recent experience of travelling by train to Northallerton. Plenty of food for thought and good to get your side of the story first hand rather than through the press.

Travelling by train has never been cheaper IF you can book in Advance and travel off peak. BUT if you can't fulfil these two criteria travelling by train has never been more expensive as you have found out. I think its very sad that we have pretty much lost the convenience of a walk up railway with even off peak 'Saver' tickets rather expensive but the price you must pay if you want flexability nowadays it seems.

Yes if you are travelling at peak times there is going to be a premium price to pay for doing this but has the cost now become totally out of proportion with the costs of travelling off peak or with advance tickets?

[John R]

Yes welcome Nick, and thank you for a very comprehensive and polite reply to our points.

I think you were badly advised by the ticket office. Checking now on the On Line Journey Planner on National Rail it quotes a turn up fare (ie not book in advance) of ^99 leaving Bath Spa at 6.28 and arriving in Northallerton at 12.00.  If you were there at 5.30 and asked for a cheaper ticket then they should have sold you that, and I think you are justified in complaining further (if you have the time, effort and inclination that is).

You were obviously put in a position whereby you couldn't shop around in advance, but if you asked the question then you were entitled to be advised of the cheaper option, though whether you would have wanted to take it given it meant kicking your heels at Bath for an hour is debatable.

I can understand why you would be tempted to say never again given your experience, but most tickets are not that outrageously priced, and I would encourage you to try the train again, maybe when there is a bit more planning time. Heading north you are probably best placed to drive to Bristol Parkway first (allow enough time for traffic and parking in the morning rush hour though).

Why use the train? Well it's safer, and allows lots of time for doing other things, particularly if you have a PC with mobile internet access. So even if the journey door to door takes a bit longer, it should not be dead time.

I agree that walk on fares in the morning peak are too expensive, but that to some extent is a political question as to the funding that the railways get compared with their European counterparts. When FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has to pay billions of pounds over the terms of its franchise to the government then there is only one person who is going to pay for that - the farepayer.