Loco hauled

[whole diary]

[smithy]

i thought LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) were releasing 001 and 002 this december? something to do with timetable change allowed them to be freed up.

[G.Uard]

The ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) unit's are not going back in December, 3 are to return to Wales in May, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have just been given the 6 month notice to return 3 of them.

I must say I had thought that the three were going back before then and that the notice applied to the remainder.  Good news there then!

[Timmer]

We welcome any spare units that are going simply because they are needed.

[Btline]

Ah, well the Wolverhampton - Walsall and Stourbridge lines won't need their 153s from December.
 

Both routes are being replaced by a bus.

[vacman]

My "source" doesn't seem to know anything about us getting 001 and 002 in december?? but who knows, logic would say that the LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) would be used on Weymouths every day next summer to free up at least two unit's at a time.

[G.Uard]

Without giving anything vital away, Gloucester turns include long layovers at Swindon, thus plenty  of time to gossip with those in the know.  I hear, as I posted elsewhere, that the 001 002 'deal' is not going to happen. At least Vacman's good news re the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) units will give us some breathing space, but what then? A 4TC hauled by a Crompton class 33 perhaps?    ( Ex SR^‡(resolve) trailer car set designed to  be split from a high horsepower REP unit and diesel loco hauled.  Used to plug the Bomo Weymouth gap).  My point is that if the technology existed in 1967, it should be easy-peasy to implement now.

[Timmer]

logic would say that the LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) would be used on Weymouths every day next summer to free up at least two unit's at a time.

That would be the most sensible thing to happen. There would need to be some modification to the timetable in the summer to a couple services to/from Bristol to Gloucester/Worcester/Great Malvern with the loco service operating between Bristol and Weymouth with DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) taking over at Bristol heading north.

[Timmer]

No 'new' stock at all for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) this winter, so no more 150/1s, three car or otherwise.  Shortfall to  be made up by splitting the hybrid 158s and reverting to 2 car operation.  I am told FGW can do  this because this was the level of service quoted when they took the franchise.  I must underline that this is only word of mouth and I have not seen anything concrete.  However, source is unimpeachable.

Would FGW be able to revert back to a 2 car operation on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line despite it being part of the service plan in the original franchise because of the remedial plan announced back in February committing FGW to operating 3 car trains until summer 2011. See below link:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/improveperffgw

Failure to deliver these new commitments would be a default of the franchise agreement which could lead to the Government terminating First Great Western's franchise.

I read that as being that FGW cannot go back on the agreement to operate 3 car 158s on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line so cuts in capacity would have to be made elsewhere if FGW are not able to source rolling stock to replace the 3 150s going back to ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) in May as Vacman has reported. I don't think that would happen and we would possibly see more loco hauled activity operating West services next summer until the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s arrive.

[The SprinterMeister]

The Locomotive and coaches option does have some merit. Ideally however you need a formation that can be driven from either end. DVT^‡(resolve)'s or DBSO^▸ (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) is needed to maximise productivity and minimise faffing around trying to run round at Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and places like that.

That's why it would run "Top and Tail" (i.e. a 67 each end.)

It's also cheaper to drag a second loco around on the back of the train all day rather than pay for a shunter when running round. Says a lot about today's railway!
TLM

There is also the issues of track occupation to run round at Cardiff Station / West end, due to the amount of HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s and units going down there to reverse. I don't think blocking two lines to run the loco round the stock would be that welcome at Cardiff, even if there was sufficient time to do so. Taunton is a two mile run round since the '80s track rationalisation.

It does incur a substantial performance penalty as you are then towing 90 tonnes (equal to about three coaches) around DIT on the back end. 67's are not exactly noted for high tractive effort (about 31000lb) or rapid getaways. The Taunton stoppers are quite smartly timed, only recovery time is through the Severn Tunnel, Filton - Bristol TM & the usual bit between the penultimate and last station.

[vacman]

if 2 loco hauled sets were used then there wouldn't be an issue at all with unit shortages! with a bit of jigging of the diagrams then the sleeper stock could be used on a couple of the Pnz-Ply diagrams (just like it was in the '80's!) i.e. the 1036 Pnz-Ply, 1244 Ply-Pnz, 1450 Pnz-Ply and 1706 Ply-Lsk then empty to Pnz or continue as a limited stop service to Pnz arriving about 1900 leaving 3 hours before the sleeper departure. only problem is covering the Bri-Pnz part of the diagram, which I think is the 05xx from Bri.

[The SprinterMeister]

if 2 loco hauled sets were used then there wouldn't be an issue at all with unit shortages! with a bit of jigging of the diagrams then the sleeper stock could be used on a couple of the Pnz-Ply diagrams (just like it was in the '80's!) i.e. the 1036 Pnz-Ply, 1244 Ply-Pnz, 1450 Pnz-Ply and 1706 Ply-Lsk then empty to Pnz or continue as a limited stop service to Pnz arriving about 1900 leaving 3 hours before the sleeper departure. only problem is covering the Bri-Pnz part of the diagram, which I think is the 05xx from Bri.

05:29 from Bristol. 2C42.

[devon_metro]

The Locomotive and coaches option does have some merit. Ideally however you need a formation that can be driven from either end. DVT^‡(resolve)'s or DBSO^▸ (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) is needed to maximise productivity and minimise faffing around trying to run round at Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and places like that.

That's why it would run "Top and Tail" (i.e. a 67 each end.)

It's also cheaper to drag a second loco around on the back of the train all day rather than pay for a shunter when running round. Says a lot about today's railway!
TLM

Is it possible that anticipating loco hauled, the diagrams stated have increased recovery time built in? At least the set won't be overcrowded and having the 172x to Cardiff as this set makes sense IMO^▸ (in my opinion)!



There is also the issues of track occupation to run round at Cardiff Station / West end, due to the amount of HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s and units going down there to reverse. I don't think blocking two lines to run the loco round the stock would be that welcome at Cardiff, even if there was sufficient time to do so. Taunton is a two mile run round since the '80s track rationalisation.

It does incur a substantial performance penalty as you are then towing 90 tonnes (equal to about three coaches) around DIT on the back end. 67's are not exactly noted for high tractive effort (about 31000lb) or rapid getaways. The Taunton stoppers are quite smartly timed, only recovery time is through the Severn Tunnel, Filton - Bristol TM & the usual bit between the penultimate and last station.

[vacman]

if 2 loco hauled sets were used then there wouldn't be an issue at all with unit shortages! with a bit of jigging of the diagrams then the sleeper stock could be used on a couple of the Pnz-Ply diagrams (just like it was in the '80's!) i.e. the 1036 Pnz-Ply, 1244 Ply-Pnz, 1450 Pnz-Ply and 1706 Ply-Lsk then empty to Pnz or continue as a limited stop service to Pnz arriving about 1900 leaving 3 hours before the sleeper departure. only problem is covering the Bri-Pnz part of the diagram, which I think is the 05xx from Bri.

05:29 from Bristol. 2C42.

thats the one, i've thought of a way to solve that problem, the "extra" HST^▸ (High Speed Train) that leaves Pnz at 1055 in the summer could start from Laira in the morning and work a local service from Plymouth to Penzance in place of 2C42, this would involve an ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) working in the evening to get the extra set to Laira, as the "summer only" extra is stabled at Longrock from 1C85 which also additionally works through to Penzance during the summer months.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

maybee ive been thinking about this the wrong way first have taken over the airport to scotland route up north.... this would be ideal for locos..... send us your newish trains now !! lol

[smithy]

No 'new' stock at all for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) this winter, so no more 150/1s, three car or otherwise.  Shortfall to  be made up by splitting the hybrid 158s and reverting to 2 car operation.  I am told FGW can do  this because this was the level of service quoted when they took the franchise.  I must underline that this is only word of mouth and I have not seen anything concrete.  However, source is unimpeachable.

Would FGW be able to revert back to a 2 car operation on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line despite it being part of the service plan in the original franchise because of the remedial plan announced back in February committing FGW to operating 3 car trains until summer 2011. See below link:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/improveperffgw

Failure to deliver these new commitments would be a default of the franchise agreement which could lead to the Government terminating First Great Western's franchise.

I read that as being that FGW cannot go back on the agreement to operate 3 car 158s on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line so cuts in capacity would have to be made elsewhere if FGW are not able to source rolling stock to replace the 3 150s going back to ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) in May as Vacman has reported. I don't think that would happen and we would possibly see more loco hauled activity operating West services next summer until the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s arrive.

quite correct they would be in breach of the franchise agreement if 3 cars were split again.

they cannot split them until 2011 at earliest hence why we are having loco hauled stuff.

i have also seen 158952 and 953 have had there added on cars changed from 748 vehicles to 745 vehicles so it looks like we are a 2 car short for now.i would suspect 748 needs some time based heavy maintenance work doing,anyone know what is being done to it?