Cotswold Line redoubling: 2008 - 2011

[whole diary]

[Btline]

I'm sure I read somewhere on this forum that the redoubling won't improve journey times much at all.

I personally think that Worcester and Hereford need peak services with a journey time of 2 hrs or less to Worcester.

I think that Perhore, Honeybourne and Hanborough can cope with one less train each way a day! I am not suggesting a total removal of stops. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to realise that patronage on the Western part of the line WON^▸ (Weekly Operating Notice )'T pick up until the journey times come down.

Worcester to London in under 2 hours via Cheltenham? One word - no.

[James_H]

Anyone on this thread use the train to get to one of the two business parks within a 5 min walk from Hanborough station?  The timetabling to and from Oxford is a nightmare - there's nothing between the 07:03 and 09:31 arrivals.

Apparently, the 08:04 (I think) Cotswold line departure from Oxford is banned from calling at Hanborough and Charlbury because if it gets delayed, it'll then delay the next train towards London.  Fair point - but why is that particular departure to London so important that it absolutely cannot be delayed - over and above any other London-bound trains which would also be delayed by late-running trains heading towards Worcester...?

[Chris from Nailsea]

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, James_H! 

From your first posts, I'm assuming you're another Cotswolds Line user?

I rather regret that's an area of which I have no personal knowledge - so I will offer the services of our existing members on that line, to respond to the interesting points you have raised!

[James_H]

Cool - thanks.  And yes, I have the misfortune to be a morning commuter to Hanborough from the Oxford direction...

I've also been in contact with the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) about this as well - but happened to find this site by googling 'Cotswold line redoubling' - so thought I'd see if anyone else had any thoughts...

[IndustryInsider]

Apparently, the 08:04 (I think) Cotswold line departure from Oxford is banned from calling at Hanborough and Charlbury because if it gets delayed, it'll then delay the next train towards London.  Fair point - but why is that particular departure to London so important that it absolutely cannot be delayed - over and above any other London-bound trains which would also be delayed by late-running trains heading towards Worcester...?

Hi, James. Basically that's the premier London service of the day and does contain a number of the most important people of the day (in their own opinion at least) heading towards London for a days business. The stops were removed as squeezing a train through the gap between the morning halts train from Worcester and this London train was causing problems and resulted in your 8am-ish train from Oxford causing a knock-on delay. The decision was taken (which on paper is quite sensible) to remove stops at Hanborough and Charlbury so that the train could still run. I can appreciate that for someone like yourself this is frustrating though.

The redoubling might make enough of a difference to allow these stops to be reinstated as your train only needs to get as far as Charlbury before the train coming the other way can pass it, rather than Ascott - that's a difference of about 10 minutes, so should allow ample time for service recovery if it's running a little late. If I were you I'd write to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now and suggest that this should happen - by all means use the information in my post to help your case!

[IndustryInsider]

Writing a sensible timetable taking everything into consideration is a great task.  Hats off to "Industry Insider" for trying.  It will be interesting to see how yours compares with the one that FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) will come up with.  Perhaps you could end up with a change of job.   

Thanks, Don! I'll pass up any offers of a job in train planning though - a short stint in that department in the early days of my career was enough. I dread to think how much more complicated it's got since privatisation! 

[willc]

James, as Industry Insider says the basic problem was that when this train was introduced in December 2007 (I'm pretty sure it was that timetable change) it did call at Hanborough and Charlbury but it kept suffering delays before it got to Oxford, which meant it was delaying the Cathedrals Express in turn, hence a swift switch to running non-stop to Kingham.

It should be added that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) had been warned the delays might happen, as Thames Trains had tried running a service at a similar time a while back, which was removed at the next timetable change because it was holding up the London train.

You do raise a good point though, about the paucity of services out of Oxford heading west in the morning peak, just as there are related problems with the level of service from the Vale of Evesham into Worcester at that time. Another example, though it would be a seriously early passenger service if ran as such, is that the Turbo set forming the 5.37 from Moreton-in-Marsh to Worcester runs empty all the way from Reading depot to Moreton.

It isn't allowed to stop anywhere to get it to Moreton in plenty of time to ensure an-on-the-dot departure so it can squeeze through to Evesham between the first two trains from Worcester to London - so tight is the timing that it isn't even allowed to stop at Honeybourne, but it then sits at Evesham for 16 minutes until leaving at 6.07. Again not the greatest use of scarce resources but a way of working dictated by the single-line sections.

I look forward to seeing Industry Insider's solution to the conundrum.

[James_H]

That was the bit I found surprising - would have thought that the trains arriving at Paddington before 09:00 would be busier and therefore more important.  When the 08:58 arrival still existed, it wasn't too bad... but now most people appear to have started driving in, which is a bit of a shame.  Presumably running the fast train towards London 5-10 minutes later wouldn't work either... what's frustrating is that for the month I used the 08:13 arrival from Oxford, it was never more than 3-4 minutes late - or is even that short a delay long enough to cause problems...?

I've also heard rumbles that the new timetable is unpopular to the extent that they're thinking about dumping it and going back to the pre-December 2008 schedule - not sure of any truth in that though - plus I've just bought a car so I'm not too worried any more!  ;-)

[Btline]

That was the bit I found surprising - would have thought that the trains arriving at Paddington before 09:00 would be busier and therefore more important.  When the 08:58 arrival still existed, it wasn't too bad... but now most people appear to have started driving in, which is a bit of a shame.  Presumably running the fast train towards London 5-10 minutes later wouldn't work either... what's frustrating is that for the month I used the 08:13 arrival from Oxford, it was never more than 3-4 minutes late - or is even that short a delay long enough to cause problems...?

I've also heard rumbles that the new timetable is unpopular to the extent that they're thinking about dumping it and going back to the pre-December 2008 schedule - not sure of any truth in that though - plus I've just bought a car so I'm not too worried any more!  ;-)

I don't think they'll be able to revert, as LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) have re-done the Worcester - Hereford timetable.

Unfortunately, the current timetable is pretty much stuck until the re-doubling.

Is this service you are talking about a Turbo?

[stebbo]

Hi, James. Basically that's the premier London service of the day and does contain a number of the most important people of the day (in their own opinion at least) heading towards London for a days business.

And what's wrong with business people going to London to do business? I work for an engineering (ie manufacturing) company that supports 1000 jobs in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), from which we export shed loads, and employs a lot more in 34 countries around the world. I'm not an unreasonable person but there is a point at which time is money. The Cotswold line does not currently deliver what I need so I go elsewhere, much like my company's customers will do - that's business/life.

[Burty76]

Oh and as an afterthought - what about a service via Cheltenham 5 times a day ?  This would give many advantages :
* A 2 hour Worcester to London journey time
* Direct service to the capital from Ashchurch for Tewkesbury
* Limited station stops
* A half an hour reduction on journey time for Cheltenham to London

Just a thought....

How would you get a two-hour Worcester-London time via Cheltenham, and, in particular, cut 30 minutes off Cheltenham-London without running non-stop? And bypassing Gloucester, which is rather bigger than Worcester?

I wasnt suggesting cutting out Gloucester stops, these would be extra trains.  On Sundays in March according to the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) Timetable, There are one or two direct Hereford - Worcester - Cheltenham - Swindon- London trains.  The journey times are pretty quick on some - 17 minutes Worcester to Cheltenham and 40 minutes Cheltenham to Swindon.  Add an hour to get to London and thats sub 2 hours Worcester to London, which is what Worcester commuters are looking for !

[IndustryInsider]

Hi, James. Basically that's the premier London service of the day and does contain a number of the most important people of the day (in their own opinion at least) heading towards London for a days business.

And what's wrong with business people going to London to do business?

Nothing. That's why I said that it was sensible on paper to run the train the other way non-stop from Oxford to Kingham so that it doesn't get delayed.

[Andy W]

Hi II,
"Can I ask what sort of service from Pershore to London you would consider appropriate?" - strangely I'm not hooked up on a journey directly from Pershore, the reason being that once it stops at Pershore the train will inevitably stop at other similar stations that I do not believe warrant anything other than a minimum service for long distances. I would rather go on a train that southbound stops at Evesham, Moreton, Charlbury, Oxford, Paddington. This would meet the Hereford/Worcester requirements (and those travelling to Paddington from the stations the service called at).

"It's at least 1h 30mins from Warwick Parkway to Marylebone plus at least 30 minutes drive from Pershore, so how is that 'far better' than the average of 2h 10 mins from Pershore?" because if I travel on the Cotswold Line I add around 30 mins 'Cotswold time'. ie. if I go to London via Marylebone for a meeting in the city I would take a train that arrives 20 mins before the meeting - for Paddington I take a train that arrives around 45 mins before the meeting because I cannot rely on it arriving on time. I also know that the longest time I need to wait for a return train from Marylebone is 30 mins, I've had to wait almost 2 hours at Paddington in the past - all these factors add to your real journey time which is different to the timetable time.

"I can appreciate not wanting to travel that far on a turbo (although a Chiltern Clubman IS essentially a turbo) - bearing in mind many trains are HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s from Pershore offering a nicer environment than a Clubman."
It's all a matter of taste, the pre-refurbished HSTs were great but I hate the refurbished ones, seats too hard & upright, I find them slightly claustrophobic, I like to look out of the window and not see my reflection reminding me I've gone grey!! Any train the needs the lights on in broad daylight has a serious design problem IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion). The Clubman, while slightly noisier, is a better environment, seating is around tables that can extend, aligned to windows you can see out of, power points for laptops etc at table level. You can in no way compare the Clubman with the Turbo in terms of passenger comfort and while the basic design of the HST is clearly superior the refurbishment has wiped out the advantage (IMHO).

Finally, I feel there were far better ways of redoubling. As an example - rather than redouble from Moreton to Evesham they had redoubled from Honeybourne to Pershore (pretty much the same distance) the maximum delay would have been approximately halved. Additionally you would not have had a station on the single line which further adds to delays. The same could apply to the eastern section, with more shorter single line sections minimising delays.

In terms of timetabling I've not got a clue where to start other than I'd look for a 'local' stopping service to service Oxford commuters that arrives a few minutes before the 'express', and vice versa in the evening. I see less importance during the day.

Finally, finally - have they ever considered splitting HST sets with a pair of DBSOs^▸ (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) in the middle? There are some things to consider operationally (nothing that's not fixable) and could run an HST 'lite' on the upper reaches of the Cotswold line or other similar lines.

[willc]

Oh and as an afterthought - what about a service via Cheltenham 5 times a day ?  This would give many advantages :
* A 2 hour Worcester to London journey time
* Direct service to the capital from Ashchurch for Tewkesbury
* Limited station stops
* A half an hour reduction on journey time for Cheltenham to London

Just a thought....

How would you get a two-hour Worcester-London time via Cheltenham, and, in particular, cut 30 minutes off Cheltenham-London without running non-stop? And bypassing Gloucester, which is rather bigger than Worcester?

I wasnt suggesting cutting out Gloucester stops, these would be extra trains.  On Sundays in March according to the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) Timetable, There are one or two direct Hereford - Worcester - Cheltenham - Swindon- London trains.  The journey times are pretty quick on some - 17 minutes Worcester to Cheltenham and 40 minutes Cheltenham to Swindon.  Add an hour to get to London and thats sub 2 hours Worcester to London, which is what Worcester commuters are looking for !

Could you actually give us the full detailed station by station timings for one of these trains please? The only train running through that I can find in FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s timetable alterations section for March is on the 29th, leaving London at 18.37 and calling everywhere you would expect along the way, including Gloucester, and taking three hours, 10 minutes to reach Shrub Hill. Change at Didcot and go via the Cotswold Line and you get there in 2hrs 39mins. Both, of course, inflated Sunday timings.

And for all those who think a two-hour timing will suddenly bring hundreds of extra passengers out of the woodwork in Worcester, a cousin of mine did, for a time, semi-commute at his employer's expense from York to London - a two-hour run - but gave up in the end, because it was just too wearing travelling four hours a day, even on non-stop expresses. Worcester isn't regular London commuting territory and never will be.

A two-hour London run may bring back a few of the 'drive somewhere else' business travel brigade but I refuse to believe they are so numerous, or such frequent travellers, to be able to support a series of limited-stop trains, all day, every day. If FGW, Thames and BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) before them had thought there was such a rich vein of revenue out there in Worcester, they would have structured the entire timetable around it long ago and left the rest of the route with a 1970s level of service. The current timetable isn't an accident, it's the result of careful analysis of travel patterns over many years - not some conspiracy against Worcester.

Similarly, the current redoubling design is the result of careful analysis, one of the conclusions of which, not surprisingly, was that two sections of single line were better than having three, whatever their length, due to the obvious risks of added delay at each single section - not least between Honeybourne and Moreton, where an ailing Oxford-bound HST^▸ (High Speed Train) running on one engine will lose time hand over fist climbing Campden bank, holding up anything trying to go the other way and anything following it - one of the ways that a problem with a single train can destroy the entire morning peak timetable at present.

With more single sections, you would also almost certainly lose the ability to offer a 15-minute interval service and with it the option of running an extra fast train or two in the peaks. A lot of money was spent computer-modelling all sorts of service options before this one was chosen.

The project is meant to provide reliability and punctuality and allow you to remove 'Cotswold time' from your calculations, because it seems to me that reliability, punctuality - and frequency - are what you value in your journeys with Chiltern, Andy. Whether FGW can find enough trains, offering the right quality for the route, at the right frequency, is the factor that is outside Network Rail's control. They seem confident they can deliver the other two.

[Btline]

Finally, I feel there were far better ways of redoubling. As an example - rather than redouble from Moreton to Evesham they had redoubled from Honeybourne to Pershore (pretty much the same distance) the maximum delay would have been approximately halved. Additionally you would not have had a station on the single line which further adds to delays. The same could apply to the eastern section, with more shorter single line sections minimising delays.

Agree - then there are 2 dynamic passing loops, instead of 1 overlong one.

In the current plans, Worcester bound trains will still get stuck at Evesham waiting for late running London bound trains. Look at the diagram of passing places (which will be similar as trains will be hourly, so passing points are at 1/2 hourly intervals) on the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) website.

This problem was brought up by Tory MP^▸ (Member of Parliament), Peter Luff, after the re-doubling was announced.