Driver to guard buzzer on HSTs

[whole diary]

[Zoe]

So can you give 2 at Dawlish Warren if the signal at the end of the loop is red for another train to pass on the up main?

[devon_metro]

You won't dispatch at Dawlish Warren until the signal clears.

[Zoe]

You won't dispatch at Dawlish Warren until the signal clears.

In 1999/2000 I used the train every weekday from Teignmouth to Exeter and many times we ran up to the signal from the station and waited there to let the Golden Hind pass if it was running late.  In late 2000 or early 2001 though we started waiting in the platform for the signal to clear so was there a change of policy at some time?

[devon_metro]

Think its just better as it allows late comers to make the train if late and theres no point sitting at a red when you will only get a yellow - so don't loose any time!

[eightf48544]

[

A guard would give 2 for a yellow signal as his train would still have the road.  Giving 2 against a red is not a good career move, hence the practice of 6 when a signal can't be seen clearly or when there is a red signal, not necessarily at the end of the platform, but reasonably close.  Drivers someties give 2 back to the 6 if the signal has cleared in the meantime.
[/quote]

Giving two against a red is known as a Ding and Ding and Away incident. There have been several accidents due to it, one at Lewes a few years back comes to mind. There are probably many more unreported incidents.  So long as the driver doesn't hit the next track circuit and no station staff witness the incident nothing happened.

It's why many long long or curved platforms have "off" indicators so that the station staff or guard can confirm platform starter is off. Also at places like platform 4 Reading there are SPAD^▸ (Signal Passed At Danger) repeaters after the signal which illuminate if the driver SPADs the main signal.

The evelution of  "Off"  indicators is interesting when first installed at some stations they used to show "On" or "Off" both in white, this proved to be confusing when glanced at quickly, so they  are now only illuminated when the signal is actually "Off" as at Paddington.

[Zoe]

So would you be allowed to give 2 at Dawlish Warren to run up to the signal or would you have to give 6 as the signal is too close to the platform?

[G.Uard]

I would say 6 if the signal is close to, but not actually on the platform.  (I don't work in this area) but as other far more experienced railway pros have pointed out, there is little point in sitting at a red signal just off the platform.  Route knowledge/current practice, plays a big part in deciding just what happens at individual locations though.  Our drivers are officially instructed to report any 'double ding and away' incidents.

[eightf48544]

So would you be allowed to give 2 at Dawlish Warren to run up to the signal or would you have to give 6 as the signal is too close to the platform?

A very interesting question and shows that railway signalling and operational rules have to be very carefully and precisely written to cater for situations such as this. Such information used to be conveyed in the Sectional Appendices and signal box instructions which gave specific interpretations of the general rules and regulations for specific locations.  Thus there should be a precise instruction in the relevant Sectional Appendix for the line, stating whether a guard/driver of a train stopping at Dawlish Warren should remain in the platform or draw up to the loop exit signal if it is at red and what bell code the guard should give and what he driver should reply. it should then be part of the route knowledge of the train crew.

I spent my first two years on the railway helping proof read changes to the Appendicies and signal box instructions which was fascinating and has given me my interest in the ergonomics and  psychology of railway operation. e.g. One of the unwritten rules of railway operation particularly as regard signalling is that it should always "fail safe". One of the other jobs my section did was to investigate "wrong side failures" where something had failed in an unsafe way, for example a signal not returning to danger or a track circuit showing clear when a train was occupying a section. A common fault with the 158s when they first came out they kept appearing and disappearing from panels.  

 

[tramway]

I understood the 6 was when the starting signal was showing amber and the guard had seen it, as the driver would only be able to pull forward to the next signal which would obviously be red. It quite frequently happens at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) when it gets a bit busy. I^m not sure if  it^s done at Trowbridge on the Bath side when trains head for Melksham as the start signal at the end of the platform shows amber when Bradford junction is set for Melksham. It would seem a little inconsistent if not as I^m sure I remember 6 being given there when we^ve followed late runners and it is also amber when it shows only the next section clear when set for Bradford.

A guard would give 2 for a yellow signal as his train would still have the road.  Giving 2 against a red is not a good career move, hence the practice of 6 when a signal can't be seen clearly or when there is a red signal, not necessarily at the end of the platform, but reasonably close.  Drivers someties give 2 back to the 6 if the signal has cleared in the meantime.

Firstly welcome to the entertaining area of the Coffee Shop, which I think has to be the best resource of everything railway related in the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) area, if not beyond, including some cracking contributers with it.

A simple question from a regular and interested user of the railway has now prompted some very interested responses from the professionals and other regulars who have clearly got fed up with reading the Metro and have actually spoken to the people who take us to work and back every day. 

Thanks everyone

[12hoursunday]

The added buzzes on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are down to an incident a few years back (in Cornwall) where a driver left a station without getting "2 from the guard", the driver left and doors were still open etc, the guard claimed that he never gave 2 and the driver claimed that he had 2 so they insisted that the guard always gives 2 a second time. as for driver operated doors, the guard will give 1-2 to the driver to shut the doors then 2 to go.

It happened in Paddington once as well. After the brake test the guard noticed a falling of the brake pressure, this was due to the driver placing the brake controller into a holding position to allow him to release the parking brake. The guard then from the rear cab cab gave the driver the three three on the buzzer to enquire why and the driver after two "peeps" of the first three gave his "two peeps" back and commenced to leave the station.

Here's a full set of buzzer/bell codes for those that are interested. Those that have heard 6 might have misheard 3-2-1 or 3-3 as 6 should only be given when a train is departing a platform to draw up to a signal that is red (or possible red that the Guard can't see). The dash means that there is a slight pause between the buzzes.


2-2        = Do not open doors


the 3-2-1 code is the only one that won't be repeated back by the driver.

Should read

Do not open dooors until you've spoken to the driver/guard

I understood the 6 was when the starting signal was showing amber

amber! don't you mean yellow? shame on you!

[gaf71]

So can you give 2 at Dawlish Warren if the signal at the end of the loop is red for another train to pass on the up main?

No is the simple answer, the signal on the up is classed as a starter signal, so its 6 to draw up to a red. As stated by another poster, giving two to a red is a quick way to shorten your railway career...

[Chris from Nailsea]

Giving 6 (one after another), is the signal to draw forward. This is used, for example at Wos Foregate St on down trains, when dispatch staff give the 'tip' but the conductor can't actually see the starting signal.  (Giving 2 against a red is a no no).  You will also see this practice at stations where there is a signal at red some way off in the distance, for example on the up side at Ashchurch.

After some further observation of this practice at Bedminster, I'm going to suggest a more practical reason for it (not just, "Because we do!") 

I'm now almost convinced that a 6 signal to 'draw forward' is actually being given, because the conductor can see the signal gantries just before the Bath Bridge (approaching BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI))) and therefore knows (as does the driver) that we can only 'draw forward' that far.  However, by the time we reach that signal, it's usually changed as a path has been cleared for us - so we don't actually stop, we just arrive at BTM rather slowly?!

However, as a mere passenger here, I'm ready to be told that this is after all some sort of masonic ritual by railway staff at Bedminster!

Chris 

[G.Uard]

You can roll down your trouser leg Chris.

The signal(s) on the gantry are not classified as a starter(s).  Per local practice, if red at time of dispatch, the guard will give 6 to draw forward. 

(Of course, there is a slight delay once the guard has, after closing doors, performed safety checks,  re-checked the signal and entered the train/closed local door.  Accordingly, it may well be that the signal clears within this time.  However, once inside, the guard can no longer see the signal, so 6 it is, if signal is red at last sight).

As mentioned before, some drivers will give a 2 back to the guard's 6 if signal has subsequently cleared.

[willc]

Can anyone explain why - at least on my HST^▸ (High Speed Train) journeys between the Cotswolds and Oxford, the traditional two beeps from the guard, followed by two from the driver, then two more from the guard to start the train seems, in the past couple of weeks, to have become just two pairs of beeps?

[Ollie]

As far as I am aware this is now the policy.

Guard says fine to go, and then driver acknowledges.