Driver to guard buzzer on HSTs

[whole diary]

[Zoe]

Hi, when I am in coach A I can hear the guard give 2 to the driver for RA and then the driver gives 2 back.  I then hear the guard give another 2 back to the driver.  Why does the guard give another 2 back to the driver?  On all other trains I have been on it's just 2 to the driver and 2 back to the guard.

[devon_metro]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are the only ones to do it for "added safety"

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

yeh its not just hst's, i was on a pacer and they did it too i wasnt sure why but i guess as already stated its just to be safe

[Btline]

First Scotrail do this - I was travelling around Scotland last week.

PS: I enjoyed the trip - few un-air-conditioned trains!!! Even the Far North lines have 158s!

Perhaps it is new First policy - I should make a trip on FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) (on the other hand....).

[devon_metro]

yeh its not just hst's, i was on a pacer and they did it too i wasnt sure why but i guess as already stated its just to be safe

Only on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are there 6 buzzes

[Electric train]

Could it be on HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s
Guard to Driver 2 buzzes doors closed,

Driver to Guard 2 buzzes confirmation,

Guard to Driver 2 buzzes RA

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

just watched that footage from the pacer i was incorrect what i thought was the first two buzzes was actually the bus doors on the pacer shutting

[IndustryInsider]

The extra two buzzes are from the Train Manager to the driver to confirm departure. It only happens on HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s as far as I know (but from the comments on here it may be spreading!) and it's due to the Driver<>Guard communication equipment being old and occasionally giving out spurious buzzer sounds to the driver. Obviously having two sets of 'right-away' buzzes from the TM^‡(resolve) virtually eliminates the chance of the driver receiving 'two' spuriously and departing in error. The equipment and cabling is being renewed on all trains progressively, but I expect the extra 'buzz' will remain in force as it has become common practice now.

[Chris from Nailsea]

... and, just as an aside, I've often noticed that there seems to be a tradition, on local units at Bedminster approaching BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)), that the departure signal from the guard is six short buzzes, acknowledged by six short buzzes from the driver.

There doesn't seem to be a reason for it - indeed, I once overheard a regular guard tell a trainee, who asked "Why?" - "We just do!"

 

[G.Uard]

Giving 6 (one after another),  is the signal to draw forward. This is used, for example at Wos Foregate St on down trains, when dispatch staff give the 'tip' but the conductor can't actually see the starting signal.  (Giving 2 against a red is a no no).  You will also see this practice at stations where there is a signal at red some way off in the distance, for example on the up side at Ashchurch.

Common usage  by ex Wessex unit crews in the Glos/Brizzle areas, but recently, I was in the back cab of a 158 with a  (route refreshing) Train Manager who was surprised by the practice, so perhaps it is a 'Wessex' thing.   I haven't been around long enough to know.

[tramway]

I understood the 6 was when the starting signal was showing amber and the guard had seen it, as the driver would only be able to pull forward to the next signal which would obviously be red. It quite frequently happens at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) when it gets a bit busy. I^m not sure if  it^s done at Trowbridge on the Bath side when trains head for Melksham as the start signal at the end of the platform shows amber when Bradford junction is set for Melksham. It would seem a little inconsistent if not as I^m sure I remember 6 being given there when we^ve followed late runners and it is also amber when it shows only the next section clear when set for Bradford.

[IndustryInsider]

Here's a full set of buzzer/bell codes for those that are interested. Those that have heard 6 might have misheard 3-2-1 or 3-3 as 6 should only be given when a train is departing a platform to draw up to a signal that is red (or possible red that the Guard can't see). The dash means that there is a slight pause between the buzzes.

1           = Stop
1-2        = Close Doors
2           = Ready to depart (Right away)
2-2        = Do not open doors
3           = Set back
3-1        = Lock central door locking
3-2        = Guard giving permission for driver to unlock doors
3-2-1     = Testing doors
3-3        = Guard to contact driver (or vice-versa)
3-3-1     = Release central door locking
4           = Slow down
4-4        = Cab to cab contact for HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s
6           = Draw forward
9           = Police required

the 3-2-1 code is the only one that won't be repeated back by the driver.

[Electric train]

If I recall correctly on the SE Trains in North Kent the Train Manager give 2 bells to tell the Drive to close the doors the TM^‡(resolve)'s door at this stage has his over ride key operated the drives responds back with 2 bells the TM once satisfied the train is ready to depart removes the over ride the door closes and another 2 bell exchange happens.  This second set of bell does not seem to happen at stations with platform dispatch

Next time I travel out that way, which quite often, I'll pay more attention and turn my MP3 player off

[vacman]

The added buzzes on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are down to an incident a few years back (in Cornwall) where a driver left a station without getting "2 from the guard", the driver left and doors were still open etc, the guard claimed that he never gave 2 and the driver claimed that he had 2 so they insisted that the guard always gives 2 a second time. as for driver operated doors, the guard will give 1-2 to the driver to shut the doors then 2 to go.

[G.Uard]

I understood the 6 was when the starting signal was showing amber and the guard had seen it, as the driver would only be able to pull forward to the next signal which would obviously be red. It quite frequently happens at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) when it gets a bit busy. I^m not sure if  it^s done at Trowbridge on the Bath side when trains head for Melksham as the start signal at the end of the platform shows amber when Bradford junction is set for Melksham. It would seem a little inconsistent if not as I^m sure I remember 6 being given there when we^ve followed late runners and it is also amber when it shows only the next section clear when set for Bradford.

A guard would give 2 for a yellow signal as his train would still have the road.  Giving 2 against a red is not a good career move, hence the practice of 6 when a signal can't be seen clearly or when there is a red signal, not necessarily at the end of the platform, but reasonably close.  Drivers someties give 2 back to the 6 if the signal has cleared in the meantime.