Oversize luggage

[whole diary]

[Btline]

Yes, but the 180s are Vomiter clones, and they have the bike store!

Bit of an insult to the Alstom design team, who produced a train that in terms of passenger environment, at least, is far superior to a Voyager. Pity the reliability of the running gear isn't to Voyager standards though.

Technically I was complementing them.

But however better they are - they are still clones!

[IndustryInsider]

Technically I was complementing them.

But however better they are - they are still clones!

I don't think they can be described as clones - In terms of design I think that they pre-date Voyagers, or at least were designed at the same time. I know they entered service just after the Voyagers but that was due to the well documented teething troubles that have never really been ironed out!

There are many similarities in terms of length, horsepower, design and top speed though of course.

[eightf48544]

I would say clones is pushing it after all a Vomiter is a diesel electric and the 180 diesel hydraulic which is a fairly fundamental difference. Also the 180s  were built by Alstrom whereas the Voyagers are from Bombardier.

Granted they both use the Cummins QSK19 engine but that's probably where the similarities end.

Apparently the 175 belongs to same Concordia family of units from Alstrom as the 180.

[Sprog]

I would say clones is pushing it after all a Vomiter is a diesel electric and the 180 diesel hydraulic which is a fairly fundamental difference. Also the 180s  were built by Alstrom whereas the Voyagers are from Bombardier.

Granted they both use the Cummins QSK19 engine but that's probably where the similarities end.

Apparently the 175 belongs to same Concordia family of units from Alstrom as the 180.

To claim the Class 180 is a copy of the 220/221 is pure ignorance i am afraid & really BTline you should quit while you are ahead

The Class 175 'Coradia' & the Class 180 'Adelante' ARE the same train, bar the differant nose end bodyshells, interiors & a few technical differances becuase of the differances in there intended operational applications (eg, 175 - Semi-fast train, 180 - Express train).

Originally the 175s are the 180s where both built for First North Western, although changes in requirments beofre they where completed & delivered meant that instead the 180s where sent to the other First Group franchise at the time, First Great Western.

[Btline]

Excuse me, I am quite well aware that the Adelante is a not a copy of the Vomiters!

I have known for a while that both the 180 and 175 are part of the Cordia family (not the Pendalino family) I would drop this "quit while you are ahead attitude. My point is: they look similar, they are similar in layout etc, and that many of the problems/complaints are related. I think that distant clone is a fair point.

However, even if I did not know this, it is still unacceptable to use the word "ignorant." If you read about the purpose of this forum, you will see that it is not a trainspotting club, or just for those who now the difference between a 153 and a 155. It is also for "Joe Bloggs" who uses the train and wants advice, knowledge or to discuss services/timetables.

Therefore the conclusion is that it would be more appropriate to call you "ignorant" as you clearly do not know the purpose of this forum.

Regards, Btline

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

now now girls

[Phil]

Thanks, Relex. I did think of stepping in myself and saying something similar - but it does seem to be rather a case of "handbags at ten pacers" at the moment (!) and hopefully won't degenerate to the point where Quiet Words Have To Be Spoken.

As it stands at the moment I think both sides are quits and everyone's a winner - not least me, since I genuinely hadn't previously cottoned on to the fact that one's a diesel electric and the other a diesel hydraulic!

[Btline]

Thanks, Relex. I did think of stepping in myself and saying something similar - but it does seem to be rather a case of "handbags at ten pacers" at the moment (!) and hopefully won't degenerate to the point where Quiet Words Have To Be Spoken.

As it stands at the moment I think both sides are quits and everyone's a winner - not least me, since I genuinely hadn't previously cottoned on to the fact that one's a diesel electric and the other a diesel hydraulic!

now now girls

Hmm... Sorry about that. I got carried away.

[Phil]

There's no need to apologise, mate - but thankyou all the same.

Speaking personally (and not with my moderator hat on!) I'm all for a bit of passion and self belief and arguing one's corner, especially when it's well done (as yours was). There's obviously a mark over which one shouldn't step, but we're a long, long way from reaching that. So, no worries.

[Sprog]

Excuse me, I am quite well aware that the Adelante is a not a copy of the Vomiters!

I have known for a while that both the 180 and 175 are part of the Cordia family (not the Pendalino family) I would drop this "quit while you are ahead attitude. My point is: they look similar, they are similar in layout etc, and that many of the problems/complaints are related. I think that distant clone is a fair point.

However, even if I did not know this, it is still unacceptable to use the word "ignorant." If you read about the purpose of this forum, you will see that it is not a trainspotting club, or just for those who now the difference between a 153 and a 155. It is also for "Joe Bloggs" who uses the train and wants advice, knowledge or to discuss services/timetables.

Therefore the conclusion is that it would be more appropriate to call you "ignorant" as you clearly do not know the purpose of this forum.

Regards, Btline

Perhaps 'ignorant' was a bit hasty. However, a clone is an identical copy of something [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning ]. So by that very definition you claiming it is a 'distant clone' is saying that both trains are the same then, surely?!!! Unless the definition of clone has changed recently and i did not realise?? It is even a clone, or it isn't a clone! I have noticed that now you are back tracking slightly (!), but at least you are using a more appropriate word 'Similar'. The trains are indeed similar & have 'similarities', as they are both 125mph capable express Multiple Unit trains.

A quick bit of googling/wikipedia-ing, you will see that the Alstom product was actually designed & constructed prior to the Bombardier project, so in fact you could argue that the 'Voyager' train is actually a so-called 'clone' of the 'Adelante'.

Also, the Class 220/221/222 Voyager/S.Voyager/Meridian/Phioneer trains actually rely on Alstom, using their world renowned 'Onix' traction package.

I am not a 'spotter' nor do i wish to be a member of a so called 'trainspotter club'. I am quite aware that the majority of this forums membership are 'norms' / 'punters'. The reason i am here is that in fact, i am an employee of the very TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) (Train Operating Company) that this site is founded upon, and it is interesting to read the criticisms/questions we receive & the discussion we provoke.

I assure you that my position makes me anything but 'ignorant' sir and i just want to make it clear that i feel you should be corrected more than anyone else because you seem to have this frame of mind, very similar to a certain character by the name of 'Julian Whitby', where by you state something as if it is a fact, but when this is subsequently disproved or criticised, you then go to great lengths to 'talk your way out' of your mistake & change your stance on the subject several times in the process. I call it the 'Whitby effect' and it is highly irritating & also very bad, because you are blabbering on stating 'fact' about things you clearly do not possess full knowledge of, which in turns gives the 'norms'/'punters'/people who do not know otherwise totally the wrong information.

When i correct you, it is not done with any personal spite to you, it is more to ensure that 'Joe Bloggs' & his friends, family & fellow passengers possess all of the right facts.

I am not going to reply to any further posts regarding the subject in this topic as i have no wish to engage in an argument with you, but i  just want to say that by continuing to attempt to somehow prove your point, if you were not being ignorant before, then continuing to jibber now & ignoring my (proven) points is indeed sheer ignorance.

PS.
It's Coradia*

PPS.
It's Pendolino*

PPPS.
On a further note, the Class 180 is a superior product to the Class 220/221. The only things that lets down the Class 180s where due to 'economising' & penny pinching within Alstom at the time, resulting in huge short-cuts being taken during the construction of the Adelantes at Washwood Heath in Brimingham. Various design issues that could have been easily worked out during the 'bedding in' period of the trains where bodged & poorly thought out and the combination of these things  is what has made the 180s the 'liability' they are today & the reason that First Great Western gave them the boot.

Cheers,

Tom

Back to topic...........................................

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

lol we all regress into children when we belive were correct, im the biggest child of all in that respect .... shame im never correct when i know i am 

[Btline]

Excuse me, I am quite well aware that the Adelante is a not a copy of the Vomiters!

I have known for a while that both the 180 and 175 are part of the Cordia family (not the Pendalino family) I would drop this "quit while you are ahead attitude. My point is: they look similar, they are similar in layout etc, and that many of the problems/complaints are related. I think that distant clone is a fair point.

However, even if I did not know this, it is still unacceptable to use the word "ignorant." If you read about the purpose of this forum, you will see that it is not a trainspotting club, or just for those who now the difference between a 153 and a 155. It is also for "Joe Bloggs" who uses the train and wants advice, knowledge or to discuss services/timetables.

Therefore the conclusion is that it would be more appropriate to call you "ignorant" as you clearly do not know the purpose of this forum.

Regards, Btline

Perhaps 'ignorant' was a bit hasty. However, a clone is an identical copy of something [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning ]. So by that very definition you claiming it is a 'distant clone' is saying that both trains are the same then, surely?!!! Unless the definition of clone has changed recently and i did not realise?? It is even a clone, or it isn't a clone! I have noticed that now you are back tracking slightly (!), but at least you are using a more appropriate word 'Similar'. The trains are indeed similar & have 'similarities', as they are both 125mph capable express Multiple Unit trains.

A quick bit of googling/wikipedia-ing, you will see that the Alstom product was actually designed & constructed prior to the Bombardier project, so in fact you could argue that the 'Voyager' train is actually a so-called 'clone' of the 'Adelante'.

Also, the Class 220/221/222 Voyager/S.Voyager/Meridian/Phioneer trains actually rely on Alstom, using their world renowned 'Onix' traction package.

I am not a 'spotter' nor do i wish to be a member of a so called 'trainspotter club'. I am quite aware that the majority of this forums membership are 'norms' / 'punters'. The reason i am here is that in fact, i am an employee of the very TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) (Train Operating Company) that this site is founded upon, and it is interesting to read the criticisms/questions we receive & the discussion we provoke.

I assure you that my position makes me anything but 'ignorant' sir and i just want to make it clear that i feel you should be corrected more than anyone else because you seem to have this frame of mind, very similar to a certain character by the name of 'Julian Whitby', where by you state something as if it is a fact, but when this is subsequently disproved or criticised, you then go to great lengths to 'talk your way out' of your mistake & change your stance on the subject several times in the process. I call it the 'Whitby effect' and it is highly irritating & also very bad, because you are blabbering on stating 'fact' about things you clearly do not possess full knowledge of, which in turns gives the 'norms'/'punters'/people who do not know otherwise totally the wrong information.

When i correct you, it is not done with any personal spite to you, it is more to ensure that 'Joe Bloggs' & his friends, family & fellow passengers possess all of the right facts.

I am not going to reply to any further posts regarding the subject in this topic as i have no wish to engage in an argument with you, but i  just want to say that by continuing to attempt to somehow prove your point, if you were not being ignorant before, then continuing to jibber now & ignoring my (proven) points is indeed sheer ignorance.

PS.
It's Coradia*

PPS.
It's Pendolino*

PPPS.
On a further note, the Class 180 is a superior product to the Class 220/221. The only things that lets down the Class 180s where due to 'economising' & penny pinching within Alstom at the time, resulting in huge short-cuts being taken during the construction of the Adelantes at Washwood Heath in Brimingham. Various design issues that could have been easily worked out during the 'bedding in' period of the trains where bodged & poorly thought out and the combination of these things  is what has made the 180s the 'liability' they are today & the reason that First Great Western gave them the boot.

Cheers,

Tom

Back to topic...........................................

Ok.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

not wanting to pick sides but.... btlines wins!

[Sprog]

not wanting to pick sides but.... btlines wins!

*shrugs* 

I wasn't aware this was a game....?

[devon_metro]

Staff vs Passenger...

Its a no brainer, clearly...