FGW may get "NEW" stock for Bristol area

[whole diary]

[smithy]

I imagine the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 158s had the German System where as most FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have the original BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))!!

No the SWT 158's, 159/0's & /1's  have the original BR aircon plant fitted, the 159/0's all have recieved the Liebherr modifications (extra evaporators) as have certain FGW 158's (158747-9/50-1).

And the SWT stock has certainly not been immune to running around with the emergency windows open.

not true all swt units now have liebherr air con fitted,the tpe sets were fitted with it at wabtec in donny during refurb.

some of the ex wessex have liebherr 747,8,9 and 51 the rest have the original temerature system as fitted on original build.

No I am in fact quite correct.

The Liebherr system is a modification to the existing 158 / 159 'Temperature' aircon system to include additional evaporaters / fans in the roof space above the vestibules.  The Compressor / Condensor module underneath the vehicle is in fact the same as was fitted to the 158's from new.

Non of the later 'Ebac' type air con 158's (815-872) have yet recieved the Leibherr Modification, this system is if anything marginally worse as regards relaibilty.

i can assure you that is incorrect.

the liebherr system is completely new,the only thing to be retained is the control panel and some wiring.the old underframe is replaced with a 3 phase alternator that drives the 2 new roof module compressors and condensor fans.
the roof modules are a fully contained system so if 1 is knackered the other still works,there is no longer any refridgerent being pumped from below solebar to the roof units.

the later ebac 815-872 have got the vapour stones system mod fitted which is even worse than the temp system.

also you are incorrect about the liebherr being less reliable,have a look at our 3 cars you will find the liebherr carriages very rarely have the windows open as the a/c is working,compare that to the temp ones and most are knackered.

[Sprog]

not true all swt units now have liebherr air con fitted,the tpe sets were fitted with it at wabtec in donny during refurb.

some of the ex wessex have liebherr 747,8,9 and 51 the rest have the original temerature system as fitted on original build.

No I am in fact quite correct.

The Liebherr system is a modification to the existing 158 / 159 'Temperature' aircon system to include additional evaporaters / fans in the roof space above the vestibules.  The Compressor / Condensor module underneath the vehicle is in fact the same as was fitted to the 158's from new.

Non of the later 'Ebac' type air con 158's (815-872) have yet recieved the Leibherr Modification, this system is if anything marginally worse as regards relaibilty.

i can assure you that is incorrect.

the liebherr system is completely new,the only thing to be retained is the control panel and some wiring.the old underframe is replaced with a 3 phase alternator that drives the 2 new roof module compressors and condensor fans.
the roof modules are a fully contained system so if 1 is knackered the other still works,there is no longer any refridgerent being pumped from below solebar to the roof units.

the later ebac 815-872 have got the vapour stones system mod fitted which is even worse than the temp system.

also you are incorrect about the liebherr being less reliable,have a look at our 3 cars you will find the liebherr carriages very rarely have the windows open as the a/c is working,compare that to the temp ones and most are knackered.

Sorry SM, 'smithy' is right on this one.

The Liebherr A/C system is totally different to the 'as built' Temperature A/C system. Regardless of which one of the two systems is fitted to a particular vehicle, they both work in unison with the Roof vent fans & Saloon underfloor heaters to give a Class 158 its HVAC system. (Heating, Ventilation & A/C)

A few pictures showing the differences in the two systems:

Liebherr 'wedge' 3-phase Alternator module (Hydrostatically driven):



Temperature 'box' Compressor/Condenser module (Hydrostatically/Internal Belt/Pulley driven):



View inside of Temperature Compressor/Condenser module:


View of Liebherr above-ceiling level combined Compressor/Condensor/Evaporator ACU (A/C Unit):


The Liebherr ACU indicator panel, fitted to the bulkhead panel in the cab-end vestibule on each car:


Added drivers cab A/C vents that are a bonus of the Liebherr A/C system:


Temperature 'Westinghouse' HVAC control panel, as fitted to 158s when built, and used by BOTH A/C systems:


Close up of HVAC control box, with the OEM data panel & 'ACIS' (Air Con Isolation Switch), which is often prematurely tripped by Train crew, resulting in no HVAC:


These are the two systems fitted to FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) current 158 fleet.

The Ebac controlled, Vapour-Stone 'water chilled' A/C units as fitted to a selection of Wessex Trains original 1588** (815 - 872, as stated) fleet  members was a trial fitment in attempt to seek an alternative to the problematic Temp. system, however it was proved to be just as ineffective & did not progress further (ie, retro fitment to the rest of the fleet).

Both systems if well maintained can be reliable, permitting procedures are followed:

- Keeping the hopper windows locked shut & vestibule sliding doors closed as much as possible when the A/C is running (otherwise the system gets confused & is constantly trying to over compensate which strains the system & causes incorrect saloon temperatures).
- Following correct vehicle engine shutting-down procedures (If the engine is shut down before the system has Pumped down fully, damage occurs & refrigerant is lost). When a cab ENGINE STOP button is pressed, if running, the HVAC will automatically begin pumping down & will only allow the engine to shut down once it has finished. Pressing the cab STOP button twice within 20secs or using the Emergency 'local' STOP buttons at solebar level will bypass this & shut the engine down instantly, as will any of the engine safety trips (Fire, Low Oil, Low Coolant etc).
-Staff setting up/examining the HVAC equipment properly in the first place using the control panel (making sure that no faults are present & the system is in the right mode).

The Liebherr is in general a marginal improvement over the original system due to the better set-up, ie. Twin independent AC modules (for redundancy) above vestibules, with the 'wedge' module (Devoted power source) below solebar, although it can be harder to maintain/refill due to the ACUs location.

Any questions...!!!!?

[grahame]

That's an impressive lot of technical information - which I'm going to bookmark and come back to read at the weekend.    Would anyone mind if I give it a thread of its own - to help people find both this information, and also the original topic, more easily?

[laffy]

[Any questions...!!!!?

Oh yes  I worked on these many moons ago. Interesting to see that the split air/con has gone, from the pictures (great by the way) it seems that the original alternator is still used, so I guess the new alternator only supplies the air/con? Do they still use the original hydrostatic pump of the back of the engine or has that been replaced with something more modern - I remember the trouble they caused at the time, and mucking around setting up and adjusting the control block on the alternator motors to ensure they didn't trip !

Cheers for the photos !

[Lee]

Welcome to the forum, laffy.

[smithy]

[Any questions...!!!!?

Oh yes  I worked on these many moons ago. Interesting to see that the split air/con has gone, from the pictures (great by the way) it seems that the original alternator is still used, so I guess the new alternator only supplies the air/con? Do they still use the original hydrostatic pump of the back of the engine or has that been replaced with something more modern - I remember the trouble they caused at the time, and mucking around setting up and adjusting the control block on the alternator motors to ensure they didn't trip !

Cheers for the photos !

original alternator still fitted new 3 phase does a/c only and is driven by the same pump they used in the temperature a/c.
yep original variable displacement pump (vdp) still fitted which drives both alternators

[The SprinterMeister]

I imagine the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 158s had the German System where as most FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have the original BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))!!

No the SWT 158's, 159/0's & /1's  have the original BR aircon plant fitted, the 159/0's all have recieved the Liebherr modifications (extra evaporators) as have certain FGW 158's (158747-9/50-1).

And the SWT stock has certainly not been immune to running around with the emergency windows open.

not true all swt units now have liebherr air con fitted,the tpe sets were fitted with it at wabtec in donny during refurb.

some of the ex wessex have liebherr 747,8,9 and 51 the rest have the original temerature system as fitted on original build.

No I am in fact quite correct.

The Liebherr system is a modification to the existing 158 / 159 'Temperature' aircon system to include additional evaporaters / fans in the roof space above the vestibules.  The Compressor / Condensor module underneath the vehicle is in fact the same as was fitted to the 158's from new.

Non of the later 'Ebac' type air con 158's (815-872) have yet recieved the Leibherr Modification, this system is if anything marginally worse as regards relaibilty.

i can assure you that is incorrect.

the liebherr system is completely new,the only thing to be retained is the control panel and some wiring.the old underframe is replaced with a 3 phase alternator that drives the 2 new roof module compressors and condensor fans.
the roof modules are a fully contained system so if 1 is knackered the other still works,there is no longer any refridgerent being pumped from below solebar to the roof units.

the later ebac 815-872 have got the vapour stones system mod fitted which is even worse than the temp system.

also you are incorrect about the liebherr being less reliable,have a look at our 3 cars you will find the liebherr carriages very rarely have the windows open as the a/c is working,compare that to the temp ones and most are knackered.

Crikey! You learn something new every day! Thanks for that. I was informed by somebody less knowledgeable than you two that the Leibherr was a bolt on addition to the existing rather less than relaible 'Temperature' installation.

The Leibherr is far and away the better system and it is a great shame in my view that it wasn't fitted to the FGW 158's that werent already fitted as they passed through shops for refurbishment.

Ebac / Stones Vapour chilled water? The biggest lot of cr8p going, must have been the only plus side of foisting the ex Wessex Angel 158's off to Northern / FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) / EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about).......

[smithy]

my thoughts exactly,going through donny works they should of been liebherred in my opinion.
far more reliable and would be covered by warranty so any defects would of got sorted out.
in fact other tocs who had it fitted had a liebherr engineer based on depot to sort problems out.
as sprog rightly says they can be a pain to regas,the roof modules need dropping to do it but if they are more reliable then it is no major problem.

whoever made the decision not to have it has made a big mistake me thinks?

temperature has always been crap so why they think repairing a 15-20 year old system is going to make it better is beyond me.

[Chris from Nailsea]

That's an impressive lot of technical information - which I'm going to bookmark and come back to read at the weekend.  Would anyone mind if I give it a thread of its own - to help people find both this information, and also the original topic, more easily?

Erm ... well, no, actually, grahame I wouldn't mind at all! 

I think my brain might implode into a black hole, otherwise, with all this excellent technical information being presented to it, all at once! 

[Sprog]

That's an impressive lot of technical information - which I'm going to bookmark and come back to read at the weekend.    Would anyone mind if I give it a thread of its own - to help people find both this information, and also the original topic, more easily?

Feel free to

[Sprog]

Just to add a bit more if anyone is interested....

There is an easy way to identify which type of A/C equipment a Class 158 has by looking at the Roof vents above the sliding-plug doors at each end of the 'car' (vehicle).

'Temperature' system (as-built):

(Has a small, but promenant single covered vent)

'Liebherr' system:

(Has a larger but less 'proud' covered vent & a square vent with large grilles)

'Vapour-Stone' (Water Chilled) system:

(Again, has a larger but less 'proud' covered vent & a square vent but, with a much finer mesh grille)

[laffy]

Thanks for the welcome
I was looking for something on the'net and stumbled across this thread. I bought back some memories. I used to work for BREL^▸ (British Rail Engineering Ltd) and one of my first jobs when I joined was as a junior member of the team that was tasked with re-designing the alternator raft and VDP drive assembly. Lots of structural issues compunded by a torsional vibration problem that just accelerated the problem. I became very familiar with the hydro system !

It sounds as if the mods have been a success, and strange others are carrying on with the original design, but I guess different owners, different TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), different franchise lengths etc.......

Can't have been a cheap mod as it looks as though a complete new raft has been designed and I guess there was a fair bit of vehicle re-wiring ?

Cheers

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks for the welcome

Not at all, laffy - thank you, for joining this forum!

If I may ask, what sort of 'something' were you looking for - a technical site, or a discussion forum?  I only ask because we do try to provide both, here in the Coffee Shop!

You're very welcome to introduce yourself in the 'Introducions and chat' topic, too!

Best wishes, C. 

[Timmer]

Many thanks for the pics of the roofs of 158s that show what air con system is in board Sprog, very useful.

[laffy]

I was looking for a picture of a 158 or 165/6 underframe. Googled 158 underframe and this thread came up and I couldn't resist