How much padding is there in the late night timetable?

[whole diary]

[johoare]

Tonight I got the 22.21 from Paddington.. I had the choice of a brisk sprint down to platform 13 and the 22.14 or the 22.21 and a change at Slough to pick up the 22.14 as it passed through there...

As I fancied a coffee and not a run up to platform 13 I got the 22.21...

It then crawled most of the way to Slough and still arrived only 2 minutes late (at 22.48 - timetabled 22.46).. Yes! It really can take 25 minutes (as timetabled) non stop on the fast line from Paddington to Slough.. weird...

By this point, us seasoned travellers who were hoping to change onto the 22.14 departure from Paddington which stops at lots of places before Slough.. (and yet we hadn't passed the train, and we (at that point) knew nothing of the padding that this train also has)... got to Slough, saw it in the relief line platform (we were on the mainline one), and all sprinted across the bridge to it... And then found out that in fact that train sits at slough for a whole ten minutes! And our unladylike (in my case) running, and my sloshing my coffee as I went, was in fact pointless.... How ridiculous. If it has to run that late from slough, surely letting it leave Paddington ten minutes later (especially if it goes from platform 13) would be much more sensible?

Or if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want to keep it this way, then announce how much time we have at Slough to get that train to prevent the stampede from one train to another (I imagine it happens most nights on this particular train!)...

At least I now know...

[eightf48544]

One of the reasons some of these late night trains are timed so slowly is that it allows them to run on relief line if the Mains are blocked by engineering work.

I presume as the fast overtakes the stopper at/before Slough the 10 minute wait is to ensure the connection. Although what happens if the Mains are not open from Dolphin Jn to Slough and the fast follows the stopper down the Releif does it stop outside Slough dfor 10 minutes and miss the connection? Is Slough box clever enough to put the Fast on Platform 5 and overtake that way?

[IndustryInsider]

To expand on eightf48544's post, Network Rail only allow paths that allow it to run a 2-track timetable at any point on the GW^▸ (Great Western) Main line between Paddington and Didcot on any given night Monday-Thursday from 21:30ish. It allows it the flexibility to take possesions where it likes on either the 'main' or 'relief' lines without affecting the timetable and thus avoiding forcing FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to have to publish amended schedules - the exception to this is Burnham/Taplow/Pangbourne trains which are replaced by buses when the relief lines are shut as there are no suitable alternative platforms.

In the case of the 22:21 it is allowed so much slack from Paddington to Slough to allow it to follow the 22:14 from Paddington to Slough in the unlikely event that there is a possesion taken for the whole of that section. Usually this is not the case and it gets to overtake it around the Hayes area - indeed sometimes it will run main line all the way and could arrive Slough around ten minutes early. The 22:14 (which is booked a 5 minute holdover at Slough, rather than the 10 you quoted) is kept there to allow the 22:21 to overtake it and avoid slowing it down en-route to Reading any further. As there are three westbound routes available through Slough you can pretty much guarantee that at least two will be available. It also can allow you to connect from the 22:21 to the 22:14 at Slough, but BE WARY this is NOT a booked connection as the timetable states a 3 minute connection time at Slough is required wheraes the timetable arrival and departure times are just two minutes apart at 22:46 and 22:48. That being said you would probably make it more often than not.

As well as the timetabled services, you also have to bear in mind that there is quite heavy freight activity at that time of night and when you put these two reasons together that is the reason you see some schedules that, on the face of it, seem a little silly.

[johoare]

. The 22:14 (which is booked a 5 minute holdover at Slough, rather than the 10 you quoted) is kept there to allow the 22:21 to overtake it
 

Hmmm.. The National rail website has the 22.14 arriving at Slough at 22.43 and leaving at 22.53.. hence me saying ten minutes? Is that wrong then? I wasn't on the train so can't be sure...

Also, if it's not a booked connection then surely the National rail website should not be displaying it as one? And it does... In journey planner I asked for trains from Paddington to Maidenhead at 22.15 and the 22.21 is there as a "change at Slough"...

[devon_metro]

Station arr dep
Slough [SLO]         2243    2253

[BBM]

The printed FGW^▸ (First Great Western) timetable shows the 22:14 as arriving at Slough at 22:43 and departing at 22:48 but the online National Rail website does indeed show departure at 22:53. However further searching on the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) site shows that the train is not currently calling at Burnham and Taplow, those two stations are served by a bus. A perusal of the FGW website brings up the following document which explains what's happening, it would appear that the engineering work causing all of this is just happening this week:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/FGW%201154%20Burnham_New%20Info.qxd.pdf

[IndustryInsider]

. The 22:14 (which is booked a 5 minute holdover at Slough, rather than the 10 you quoted) is kept there to allow the 22:21 to overtake it
 

Hmmm.. The National rail website has the 22.14 arriving at Slough at 22.43 and leaving at 22.53.. hence me saying ten minutes? Is that wrong then? I wasn't on the train so can't be sure...

Also, if it's not a booked connection then surely the National rail website should not be displaying it as one? And it does... In journey planner I asked for trains from Paddington to Maidenhead at 22.15 and the 22.21 is there as a "change at Slough"...

After a little bit of head-bashing I think I can answer that one! I based my reply to your post on the online timetable downloadable from the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Website, but having checked the National Rail website too If I ask for trains from Slough to Maidenhead it gives me 22:48 (see below). The only answer is that whenever the train is not stopping at Burnham/Taplow (which is applying this week), it gets held at Slough for an extra 5 minutes to avoid arriving Maidenhead early and to allow connections from Burham/Taplow off of the 22:48 replacement bus arrival. This is potentially confusing of course because on one night it is a valid connection and on the next it's not! The only thing I can recommend, Jo, is that you drink up your coffee a little quicker if you know the 'connecting' train is stopping at Burnham and Taplow! 

2
WED 13 AUG
Slough (SLO) to Maidenhead (MAI^▸ (Maidenhead station))
Journey Summary Details - Option 1 Departs    Arrives    Duration    Changes    
                                                  22:33    22:40               0:07          0    See Details

3
WED 13 AUG
Slough (SLO) to Maidenhead (MAI)
Journey Summary Details - Option 2 Departs    Arrives    Duration    Changes    
                                                  22:48    22:59               0:11          0    See Details


4
WED 13 AUG
Slough (SLO) to Maidenhead (MAI)
Journey Summary Details - Option 3 Departs    Arrives    Duration    Changes    
                                                  23:14    23:25               0:11          0    See Details


Sorry, BBM, I was preparing this response whilst you made the same point much simpler!

[johoare]

. The 22:14 (which is booked a 5 minute holdover at Slough, rather than the 10 you quoted) is kept there to allow the 22:21 to overtake it
 

Hmmm.. The National rail website has the 22.14 arriving at Slough at 22.43 and leaving at 22.53.. hence me saying ten minutes? Is that wrong then? I wasn't on the train so can't be sure...

Also, if it's not a booked connection then surely the National rail website should not be displaying it as one? And it does... In journey planner I asked for trains from Paddington to Maidenhead at 22.15 and the 22.21 is there as a "change at Slough"...

After a little bit of head-bashing I think I can answer that one! I based my reply to your post on the online timetable downloadable from the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Website, but having checked the National Rail website too If I ask for trains from Slough to Maidenhead it gives me 22:48 (see below). The only answer is that whenever the train is not stopping at Burnham/Taplow (which is applying this week), it gets held at Slough for an extra 5 minutes to avoid arriving Maidenhead early and to allow connections from Burham/Taplow off of the 22:48 replacement bus arrival. This is potentially confusing of course because on one night it is a valid connection and on the next it's not! The only thing I can recommend, Jo, is that you drink up your coffee a little quicker if you know the 'connecting' train is stopping at Burnham and Taplow! 

2
WED 13 AUG
Slough (SLO) to Maidenhead (MAI^▸ (Maidenhead station))
Journey Summary Details - Option 1 Departs    Arrives    Duration    Changes    
                                                  22:33    22:40               0:07          0    See Details

3
WED 13 AUG
Slough (SLO) to Maidenhead (MAI)
Journey Summary Details - Option 2 Departs    Arrives    Duration    Changes    
                                                  22:48    22:59               0:11          0    See Details


4
WED 13 AUG
Slough (SLO) to Maidenhead (MAI)
Journey Summary Details - Option 3 Departs    Arrives    Duration    Changes    
                                                  23:14    23:25               0:11          0    See Details


Sorry, BBM, I was preparing this response whilst you made the same point much simpler!

hhmm.. well thank you for those replies.. It does make sense.. However, surely telling us passengers these things would help us all out a lot?   It appears then from everything on here that we arrived at Slough (at 22.48) just as the stopping service should be leaving Slough.. Except it wasn't due to the not stopping at Burnham and Taplow this week ... But no one told us we didn't need to risk breaking a leg to get to the train that was going to sit there for another 5 minutes? would that not be useful?  Also I've seen nothing anywhere telling me about the engineering works this week?

Also IndustryInsider mentions the timetable Padding is to prevent them having to make timetable alterations when there are engineering works. Surely this is exactly what they are doing anyhow, even if they aren't advertising they are doing it. I am assuming the national rail website tells us something different this week for that train, and another different time next week when there aren't engineering works?

No wonder I'm a little confused...

[IndustryInsider]

Also IndustryInsider mentions the timetable Padding is to prevent them having to make timetable alterations when there are engineering works. Surely this is exactly what they are doing anyhow, even if they aren't advertising they are doing it. I am assuming the national rail website tells us something different this week for that train, and another different time next week when there aren't engineering works?

No wonder I'm a little confused...

I quite understand the confusion, but if the schedules were there without this 'padding' - as they are on a Friday night for example - then every time a possession took place you would be looking at a delay to the service or altered timings which would affect crew diagrams as well as meaning the 'advertised' service not running to that schedule. Accepting that with the Burnham/Taplow case there is no alternative other than to change the timings slightly.

Engineering works of some sort or another are taking place all of the time, not just at night - just look out for the number of track workers in high-vis vests standing by the tracks as you pass them during the day. The more detailed work which means tracks have to be closed then takes place overnight or at the weekend.

It's quite probable that you arrived at 22:48 at Slough on the 22:21 from Paddington because you would have followed the 22:14 after you caught it up in the Hayes area. Had the padding not been there then you would have been nearly 10 minutes later than advertised, rather than two.