Hopefully just a rumour

[whole diary]

[northwesterntrains]

On another rail website some people are saying that under DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) orders that East Midlands Trains and First Scotrail must be sub-leased 158s which are set to come from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Northern Rail.  No mention on the number but it appears to be only while refurbishment works are carried out on 158s used by EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) and Scotrail.

Apparently both companies would be financially compensated, which has been suggested as why the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are happy to sub-lease their trains.

[devon_metro]

Sorry why?

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have hundreds of spare 158s and the stretched FGW^▸ (First Great Western) fleet is to be taken away?

I'd love to meet the idiot that made this decision, of course, hopefully a rumour

[Timmer]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s West fleet is stretched enough as it is at the moment coping with running strengthened summer services with daily reports of trains running short formed appearing once again.

The last thing thats needed is for us to lose stock to other parts of the country come the Autumn when daily commuter services become busy again after the school summer holidays.

As you say, hopefully just a rumour.

[G.Uard]

I heard today from a fairly senior source that 5 to 10 165 and or 6s may be transferred to Brizzle from Reading.  Speculation is that they will be used on  core routes, particularly to/frm Gloucester.  Unsure just how solid this is and I think that I read somewhere that Turbos would require work to be usable in the west.  If driver operation of doors is retained,  guards will be freed up to take more revenue. 

 I believe that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) only have 11 2 car sets of 158s, but who knows what is lurking at Salisbury.

[Btline]

How long will it take until the government to realise that they need to start a large carriage building programme. Building 158 cars would be good, allowing either centre of train or end of train to be boosted.

The same with turbostars and the 185s, the small orders are not enough, a large and continuous programme is needed to cope with overcrowding and allow growth and new services. How on earth are LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) going to run proposed new services if there current order (to be delivered in years!) is SMALLER than the current one. If a programme was run, the 150s could gradually be replaced, lengthened and then the new stock would be ready to run the new Moor Street services and the new Aldridge, Tamworth local services.

There should also be one type of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) being built (obviously different door configurations and interiors to match the proposed usage - but the basic shell being the same) so all units are compatible with each other and can be sent all around the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

I would think it would also be cheaper than individual orders.

Or am I wrong?

[r james]

WHat would replace the turbos / 166s if they move west? 

Why should EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) receive any stock for their refurbishment programme?  They should be made to make full use of the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) stock, and they should just struggle for a little longer with shorter trains. 

[The SprinterMeister]

On another rail website some people are saying that under DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) orders that East Midlands Trains and First Scotrail must be sub-leased 158s which are set to come from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Northern Rail.  No mention on the number but it appears to be only while refurbishment works are carried out on 158s used by EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) and Scotrail.

Apparently both companies would be financially compensated, which has been suggested as why the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are happy to sub-lease their trains.

Think you will find its just that. A rumor. 14 FGW 158's (the Angel Trains ones in the 158815-872 series, ex Wessex sets) went to FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) and Northern last year. The 142's are subleased as their replacement. Somebody has got their wires seriously crossed.

165's have gauging issues on the Bristol - Taunton line in any case. Not sure if they are cleared Cardiff - Portsmouth.

[vacman]

I heard today from a fairly senior source that 5 to 10 165 and or 6s may be transferred to Brizzle from Reading.  Speculation is that they will be used on  core routes, particularly to/frm Gloucester.  Unsure just how solid this is and I think that I read somewhere that Turbos would require work to be usable in the west.  If driver operation of doors is retained,  guards will be freed up to take more revenue. 

 I believe that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) only have 11 2 car sets of 158s, but who knows what is lurking at Salisbury.

The guard would have to operate the doors as it would be deemed as DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) if the doors are operated by the driver and the DOO system is not allowed to be expanded from the areas where it is in operation now. Don't think our 158's are going anywhere, EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) have a surplus of 153's which will cover.

[Timmer]

WHat would replace the turbos / 166s if they move west? 

Did I read somewhere when the government released it's rolling stock plan that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are to receive some 165/166s from Chiltern once their new trains order arrives?

[John R]

The RSP Update published recently refers to Chiltern's order of 12 coaches, which I believe is to cover growth and the additional unit needed for the Aylesbury Parkway service. So no obvious release of units there. The same plan refers to the 52 extra coaches that is well known that we will get from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) in 09/10. They are still shown as additional, which would imply that nothing goes back other than the 142s that will return once the refurb programme is finished. 

[Electric train]

I don't think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could spare any 165/6's if they released any from say the Bedwyn,services  replaced with HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s the only other places would be the Branch Lines Greenford, Windsor, Marlow, Henley, Basingstoke most of these are DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) so would either require a Guard or units suitable for DOO and then there is all the Driver, maintenance etc training.  The other service could the the Reading Gatwick but then the training of staff is still a problem.

The FGW Reading to London services could do with extra coaches on quite a lot of their peak and even some of their off peak services so to loose units elsewhere would not go down to well with FGW customers especially if you consider that Paddington is the only London terminus where 3 car trains are the norm on their outer suburban services.

The other thing to consider is the 165/6 must be due for shopping the insides are disgusting and the windows either don't close or open properly.

Quite simply FGW Thames area franchise with its 165/6 is at full stretch it needs more 165/6 not less or oddball units thrown in as this would cramp the flexibility they currently have.

[northwesterntrains]

Think you will find its just that. A rumor. 14 FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 158's (the Angel Trains ones in the 158815-872 series, ex Wessex sets) went to FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) and Northern last year. The 142's are subleased as their replacement. Somebody has got their wires seriously crossed.

165's have gauging issues on the Bristol - Taunton line in any case. Not sure if they are cleared Cardiff - Portsmouth.

East Midlands Trains had some 158s in Wessex Trains livery, not sure how many.  If they were 3 car 158s then it's likely the centre coach was taken out and sent to Northern.

I don't know what trains would be supposed to cover the 158 diagrams.  SWT^▸ (South West Trains) seem to be the only TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) with spare rolling stock and I don't know of any trains other than 180s in storage.  (I think CrossCountry took up the remaining HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train))  DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) probably think preserved lines will forfeit their 108s for National Rail use.

[r james]

The only other stock that could be freed up is the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) 150s whcih dont seem to be seeing much use, except with FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  If FGW got on with the refurb of their units, theses would then be free, but wouldnt really be suitable for the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) services i guess?

How much longer do FGW anticipate their refurbishments to take?  Surely cant be much longer?

And are the ATW hired in units getting any modifications made to them by FGW?

[Tim]

I heard today from a fairly senior source that 5 to 10 165 and or 6s may be transferred to Brizzle from Reading.  Speculation is that they will be used on  core routes, particularly to/frm Gloucester.  Unsure just how solid this is and I think that I read somewhere that Turbos would require work to be usable in the west.  If driver operation of doors is retained,  guards will be freed up to take more revenue. 

 I believe that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) only have 11 2 car sets of 158s, but who knows what is lurking at Salisbury.

The guard would have to operate the doors as it would be deemed as DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) if the doors are operated by the driver and the DOO system is not allowed to be expanded from the areas where it is in operation now. Don't think our 158's are going anywhere, EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) have a surplus of 153's which will cover.

Why is DOO not allowed to be expanded.  Is this a H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) issue or an agreement with the Unions? 

I am just a simple passenger but these are my thoughts on DOO:  It worries me that there could be only one qualilified member of staff on a train.  It means that they have noone to help them in an emergency.  What if one of them is killed in an accident or attacked or just has a heart attack and dies?  I'd like to know that there was someone else on the train who was at least qualified enough to protect it, radio for help and deal with the passengers.   Having said this, is there any evidence at all that the current DOO routes are any less safe than what we have already?  I am puzzled as to why DOO can be passed as safe on some routes but not others.  Either it can be used anywhere or nowhere? (or am I missing something is safe DOO dependednt on extra equipment only istalled on certain routes?).

However, assuming that the Guard is retained I can't see what the problem would be with removing the closing doors job from him and giving it to the driver.  The Guard would still be there if needed in an emergency and freed of the need to operate the doors he would be better able to serve the customer and protect the company's revenue.   My understanding of the current system is that the driver checks that the doors are closed and looks back at the train as it pulls out of the station as it is.  Would giving him a button to press to close the doors himself make much difference? 

Presumably the platform needs to be straight enough for the driver to see the train doors in order to close them without leaving his cab (this, I assume would be dangerous incase the train ran away without him), but if teh Guard was present, he , or the platform staff, could close the doors on the more curved platforms (or is it asking for trouble by dividing up responsibilities too much?)

I am completely ignorant on this issue and invite you to put me right or shoot me down in flames.

[welshman]

SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) at least around Paris seem to manage DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) without difficulty.  They do it by having CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) on the platform with a bank of screens at the driver end of the platform.  As they do on the Metro and the Underground.

But then you arrive at the Gare St Lazare and see a few CRS on the platform with sub-machine guns at the ready...  I doubt if anyone gets pushed on the tracks there for complaining about smokers.