Newquay and Plymouth Airports - their rise and fall - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[woody]

The information was taken from the following link http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/198697-air-southwest-48.html  "The PPRuNe Forums (The Professional Pilots Rumour Network)" although further digging shows it originated with the Western Morning News, The Plymouth (UK^▸ (United Kingdom)); August 1, 2011 at http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Insider-s-view-big-city-s-flying-days/story-13048726-detail/story.html although this link does not seem to work when I tried it.

[woody]

Consultants back plan to close Plymouth City Airport
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Consultants-plan-close-Plymouth-City-Airport/story-13140909-detail/story.html Aviation experts Berkeley Hanover Consulting, which carried out the study, were unable to identify "an economic rationale" for the council to underwrite the commercial risks involved in keeping "any scale of airport operations".

[LiskeardRich]

Eastern appear to be flying at present under the Eastern name not ASW, Pirate FM travel news several times have reported eastern service from manchester to Newquay is delayed, and i've thought whos eastern, now i realise they are ASW.

[woody]

A GROUP of passengers, businesses and aviation industry figures have united in a bid to save Plymouth City Airport.
Called VIABLE, the group holds its first meeting on Tuesday and has an open invitation for anyone to attend.
Its aim is to secure the airport for commercial passenger aviation, building a "present and viable plan" for its future.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/New-group-formed-bid-save-Plymouth-City-Airport/story-13439981-detail/story.html

[ChrisB]

So they're going to be buying seats on the flights regularly then?

[vacman]

could call it the Titfield thunderBIRD.

[woody]

This latest article on the future(or not) of Plymouths airport may come as a surprise to those on this Great Western Forum who think that the world ends at Bristol or Exeter but given the complete lack of any real rail improvements both past present and most worryingly the future this far south west then it is hardly surprising there is a campaign going on to try to save Plymouths airport.Personally as a regular rail user and supporter in these parts I would like to see the railways west of Exeter improved to a level where air links are not necessary at all but lets be honest Devon and Cornwall main line is and will only ever be a pale shadow of those on the post electrified Great Western Main line and it is that reality that is only now sinking in particularly and ironically since the ^5bilion Great Western main line upgrade was announced.
 Quote from Christopher Irwin chairman of TravelWatch SouthWest in a Western morning news article  on Monday, October 03, 2011 "The Plymouth business community, already disadvantaged by the loss of its air services, struggles to retain a headline three-hour journey time to London. The term ^high speed^ is a misnomer for passengers from Penzance to London who spend the greater part of their journey on track where speeds are restricted to a maximum of 40-75mph despite their train being designed for 125mph running."
Anyway here is the link for what its worth.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/pound-5m-offer-table-save-city-airport/story-13480280-detail/story.html

[ChrisB]

But I think the bretheren of PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) need to prove the demand is there.

Personally, I don't think it is. Maybe for a faster train every other hour?....but if there's more than 10 for any one train, I doubt it very much.

[IndustryInsider]

Well, I don't know Plymouth very well at all, but I do know that it's the 16th largest city in England - bigger than places like Southampton, Derby and Reading, and that would suggest to me there is some kind of potential for extra custom if there were targeted linespeed improvements?  There is certainly scope for increased speeds between Reading and Cogload Junction, and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are pushing heavily for investment from Bristol to Plymouth, mainly 125mph running from Bridgwater to Bristol, but I would expect there to be improvements west of Bridgwater as well.

You could quite easily see 15mins knocked off the current 3-hour journey time, but probably not much improvement until ETRMS is introduced (along with new trains), i.e. 15 or so years away, so you can see where 'woody's' frustrations come from.

[ChrisB]

Oh, I don't doubt there's large demand fir faster services across the SW region, all the way to Bristol certainly - but thise that want to go the full length of the Berks & Hants are likely to be sub 10 a service, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion)

[Maxwell P]

Firstly, it's not about the size of the city in terms of population within the boundaries.  Reading Borough, for example, has c150K, less than that of Plymouth, but its suburbs, which fall within other authorities, push that figure towards 250K. As such, it is somewhat misleading to quote Plymouth as the x largest city, within this context.

Secondly, there has to be a business case for any transport services, unless very heavily subsidised.  Plymouth simply does not have enough in its favour to retain an airport, or for that matter, to benefit from vastly improved rail provision .  The City is at best, moribund.

Thirdly, the airport is outdated, hampered by a short runway and unable to beat off competition from Exeter and Newquay.

RIP Roborough.

[ChrisB]

Secondly, there has to be a business case for any transport services, unless very heavily subsidised.  Plymouth simply does not have enough in its favour to retain an airport, or for that matter, to benefit from vastly improved rail provision .

Agreed.
It's not a question of size of city, or of the area - its simply the *demand*. Of course everyone would be on it if it was a time traveller, but it isn't - and very few want to spend 5+ hours a day travelling....

You can't have a service *just in case* people might use it, regardless of how important you as a City might feel.

[IndustryInsider]

Firstly, it's not about the size of the city in terms of population within the boundaries.  Reading Borough, for example, has c150K, less than that of Plymouth, but its suburbs, which fall within other authorities, push that figure towards 250K. As such, it is somewhat misleading to quote Plymouth as the x largest city, within this context.

Point taken, though I did make mention in the same sentance that I didn't know the city in question very well.  I agree that population figures can always be open to misinterpretation, and only form part of the argument for better rail services.  I also agree that a business case must exist for most rail services, especially long distance ones.

If you'll excuse me for quoting more statistics though, your Reading Borough figure presumably includes places like Wokingham which, for example, already have well established stations in themselves.  Indeed Wokingham station, at over 2 million entries and exits a year, is only fractionally below the figure for Plymouth, which, despite being the only large station in the immediate area serving such a large population, is only the 170th busiest in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).  That would suggest to me that there's much more potential there, importantly not just for long distance services to London, but other local and regional routes as well.  Sadly, the way the railway industry is currently set-up, it doesn't encourage any risk taking, so there's unlikely to be any wholesale changes.

[ChrisB]

But at least 50% of the Reading population will travel on the train. What population of PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) will?

[Maxwell P]

Firstly, it's not about the size of the city in terms of population within the boundaries.  Reading Borough, for example, has c150K, less than that of Plymouth, but its suburbs, which fall within other authorities, push that figure towards 250K. As such, it is somewhat misleading to quote Plymouth as the x largest city, within this context.

Point taken, though I did make mention in the same sentance that I didn't know the city in question very well.  I agree that population figures can always be open to misinterpretation, and only form part of the argument for better rail services.  I also agree that a business case must exist for most rail services, especially long distance ones.

If you'll excuse me for quoting more statistics though, your Reading Borough figure presumably includes places like Wokingham which, for example, already have well established stations in themselves.  Indeed Wokingham station, at over 2 million entries and exits a year, is only fractionally below the figure for Plymouth, which, despite being the only large station in the immediate area serving such a large population, is only the 170th busiest in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).  That would suggest to me that there's much more potential there, importantly not just for long distance services to London, but other local and regional routes as well.  Sadly, the way the railway industry is currently set-up, it doesn't encourage any risk taking, so there's unlikely to be any wholesale changes.

I used Reading as an example because some of its immediate suburbs, Woodley, Lower Early, (some distance from Early S.R.) Shinfield and Spencers Wood fall within Wokingham, even though Reading is nearer.  To the west, Calcot and parts of Tilehurst fall within West Berks, despite being over 13 miles from Newbury, but within 4 miles of Reading station.  The figures for 'Greater' Reading's population do not include Wokingham Town or any of the satellite 'towns' such as Pangbourne.

For more info see http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/index.htm