Buffet Update

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

This "mini cafe" idea in coach E is a mad idea.

1)Even less seats for commuters!

2)And as eightXXXX said, what happens when the 1505 is given a cafe in E on a summer Saturday?

3)Use the normal ones.

4)If there are none left, convert a spare coach
5)or build a new one!

1) Seats or food - your choice.
2) Not the busiest service on a Summer sat
3)That costs money and money FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't have considering the silly sum of cash they owe to some accountant in London
4)None left of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) variety
5) Ridiculous idea

[Btline]

This "mini cafe" idea in coach E is a mad idea.

1)Even less seats for commuters!

2)And as eightXXXX said, what happens when the 1505 is given a cafe in E on a summer Saturday?

3)Use the normal ones.

4)If there are none left, convert a spare coach
5)or build a new one!

1) Seats or food - your choice.
2) Not the busiest service on a Summer sat
3)That costs money and money FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't have considering the silly sum of cash they owe to some accountant in London
4)None left of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) variety
5) Ridiculous idea

1. No, with a buffet car you get seats and food (and a trolley area). With a mini cafe you get less seats and (I would expect) less food plus no trolley area.
2. Fine -sub in said busy service! Ditto applies. What happens if.....
3. I thought FGW had lots of mon^y.
4. What about a mark 2 coach?
5. Fair enough but why not? perhaps?

[devon_metro]

This "mini cafe" idea in coach E is a mad idea.

1)Even less seats for commuters!

2)And as eightXXXX said, what happens when the 1505 is given a cafe in E on a summer Saturday?

3)Use the normal ones.

4)If there are none left, convert a spare coach
5)or build a new one!

1) Seats or food - your choice.
2) Not the busiest service on a Summer sat
3)That costs money and money FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't have considering the silly sum of cash they owe to some accountant in London
4)None left of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) variety
5) Ridiculous idea

1. No, with a buffet car you get seats and food (and a trolley area). With a mini cafe you get less seats and (I would expect) less food plus no trolley area.
2. Fine -sub in said busy service! Ditto applies. What happens if.....
3. I thought FGW had lots of mon^y.
4. What about a mark 2 coach?
5. Fair enough but why not? perhaps?

1) You either get seats or food - everyone seems to moan both ways so FGW can't win!!!
2) The 3 sets with no buffets cope fine at the mo
3) The more money they spend, the more the fares go up!
4) 100mph coach without HST coupling in a 125mph train........
5) Mk3s won't meet modern crash worthyness nor is the production line going to open for 10 mk3 coaches :S

[swlines]

This "mini cafe" idea in coach E is a mad idea.

1)Even less seats for commuters!

2)And as eightXXXX said, what happens when the 1505 is given a cafe in E on a summer Saturday?

3)Use the normal ones.

4)If there are none left, convert a spare coach
5)or build a new one!

1) Seats or food - your choice.
2) Not the busiest service on a Summer sat
3)That costs money and money FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't have considering the silly sum of cash they owe to some accountant in London
4)None left of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) variety
5) Ridiculous idea

1. No, with a buffet car you get seats and food (and a trolley area). With a mini cafe you get less seats and (I would expect) less food plus no trolley area.
2. Fine -sub in said busy service! Ditto applies. What happens if.....
3. I thought FGW had lots of mon^y.
4. What about a mark 2 coach?
5. Fair enough but why not? perhaps?

1) You either get seats or food - everyone seems to moan both ways so FGW can't win!!!
2) The 3 sets with no buffets cope fine at the mo
3) The more money they spend, the more the fares go up!
4) 100mph coach without HST coupling in a 125mph train........
5) Mk3s won't meet modern crash worthyness nor is the production line going to open for 10 mk3 coaches :S

1) How about this radical idea of a trolley... then you get both.
2) Mainly because they're diagrammed on extremely fast services or short services
3) Only because TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are money grabbing.
4) Is perfectly possible with various body mods but unlikely
5) You could get a very similar design with modern standards. The production line is going to open for HST2 soon anyway.

[Btline]

This "mini cafe" idea in coach E is a mad idea.

1)Even less seats for commuters!

2)And as eightXXXX said, what happens when the 1505 is given a cafe in E on a summer Saturday?

3)Use the normal ones.

4)If there are none left, convert a spare coach
5)or build a new one!

1) Seats or food - your choice.
2) Not the busiest service on a Summer sat
3)That costs money and money FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't have considering the silly sum of cash they owe to some accountant in London
4)None left of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) variety
5) Ridiculous idea

1. No, with a buffet car you get seats and food (and a trolley area). With a mini cafe you get less seats and (I would expect) less food plus no trolley area.
2. Fine -sub in said busy service! Ditto applies. What happens if.....
3. I thought FGW had lots of mon^y.
4. What about a mark 2 coach?
5. Fair enough but why not? perhaps?

1) You either get seats or food - everyone seems to moan both ways so FGW can't win!!!
2) The 3 sets with no buffets cope fine at the mo
3) The more money they spend, the more the fares go up!
4) 100mph coach without HST coupling in a 125mph train........
5) Mk3s won't meet modern crash worthyness nor is the production line going to open for 10 mk3 coaches :S

1) How about this radical idea of a trolley... then you get both.
2) Mainly because they're diagrammed on extremely fast services or short services
3) Only because TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are money grabbing.
4) Is perfectly possible with various body mods but unlikely
5) You could get a very similar design with modern standards. The production line is going to open for HST2 soon anyway.

1) Trolleys are bad as they can't get through and end up being a mini buffet.
2) Those sets need buffet cars.
3) Agree! The profits they make....
4) I thought mark 2s ran on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) so how can they be restricted to 100 mph? I thought mark 1s went on the WCML!!!
5) Agree - why not make extra buffets part of the HST2 plan?

[swlines]

1) And? Do you want seats or a buffet or both? If you want both - trolley. End of story.
2) No, no train necessarily requires a buffet. You obviously haven't been on some 3 hour slogs on some services I know of.
3) Skip.
4) The WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) pre-modernisation was mainly 100-110mph throughout. The LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) in use currently is a Mk3.
5) Trains would be too long.

[willc]

What is required is new intemediate distance commuter unit preferably electric to work the Oxfords etc. In the meantime, before we get electrification to at least Oxford, wasn't there something called an Adelante?

Not this again! Adelantes are too small for the peak services between Oxford-Reading-London, with effectively the same number of seats as a three-car Turbo. The SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) recognised this wasn't adequate years ago, hence it dreamed up the high-density HST^▸ (High Speed Train) concept, though only in a small dedicated fleet for this specific route.

As noted earlier in this thread, there are spare HST buffets from Midland Mainline sets stored at Long Marston.

I remain dubious about this mix of 2+7 and 2+8 sets, with varying facilities, which could cause all kinds of fun if a set fails and control has to try to find one urgently that it can step up but which also has the right catering set-up needed for, say, a Pullman restaurant duty to Plymouth.

[Btline]

1) And? Do you want seats or a buffet or both? If you want both - trolley. End of story.
2) No, no train necessarily requires a buffet. You obviously haven't been on some 3 hour slogs on some services I know of.
3) Skip.
4) The WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) pre-modernisation was mainly 100-110mph throughout. The LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) in use currently is a Mk3.
5) Trains would be too long.

1) Buffet cars provides both also.
2) I would disagree - especially at peak times.
4) Understand, but it can't be too difficult to get 125 mph?
5) How is 8 coaches too long? And with SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), surely train length is less of a restriction/?

What is required is new intemediate distance commuter unit preferably electric to work the Oxfords etc. In the meantime, before we get electrification to at least Oxford, wasn't there something called an Adelante?

Not this again! Adelantes are too small for the peak services between Oxford-Reading-London, with effectively the same number of seats as a three-car Turbo. The SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) recognised this wasn't adequate years ago, hence it dreamed up the high-density HST^▸ (High Speed Train) concept, though only in a small dedicated fleet for this specific route.

As noted earlier in this thread, there are spare HST buffets from Midland Mainline sets stored at Long Marston.

I remain dubious about this mix of 2+7 and 2+8 sets, with varying facilities, which could cause all kinds of fun if a set fails and control has to try to find one urgently that it can step up but which also has the right catering set-up needed for, say, a Pullman restaurant duty to Plymouth.

I agree, but the 180 was good length for off peak Cotswold.

[swlines]

1) And? Do you want seats or a buffet or both? If you want both - trolley. End of story.
2) No, no train necessarily requires a buffet. You obviously haven't been on some 3 hour slogs on some services I know of.
3) Skip.
4) The WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) pre-modernisation was mainly 100-110mph throughout. The LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) in use currently is a Mk3.
5) Trains would be too long.

1) Buffet cars provides both also.
2) I would disagree - especially at peak times.
4) Understand, but it can't be too difficult to get 125 mph?
5) How is 8 coaches too long? And with SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), surely train length is less of a restriction/?

1) This links into train length, the longer the train the slower the train accelerates.
2) No train *requires* a buffet - end of story. Settle and Carlisle services regularly don't have buffets except where provided by the partnership. Likewise, frequently SWT^▸ (South West Trains) long distance (Wey - Wat) have no trolley or buffet throughout. I can think of several instances of no buffet on WoE services too. The answer is to just buy stuff in advance from the station.
4) 125mph speeds are related to crumple zones. Mk2^▸ (Mark 2 coach) crumple zones are tbh, crap...
5) Platform lengths. SDO on HST2 may not be the same concept as on the original HST^▸ (High Speed Train). Note, "SDO" on SWT units is unit only so it's really SUO. HST2 AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) will be similar to E* in the sense that it is formed of 2 half sets.

[IndustryInsider]

As the number of retail outlets at stations increase, the argument for having a buffet service decreases, but I think it's one of those situations where the perception of having a buffet car on board increases the prestige of a service - even if a passenger isn't going to use it, then it is a positive facility that gives the train in question a certain 'Inter-City' feel.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could guarantee to a reasonable extent that the availablility of having in essence three 'types' of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) operating would mean that the right type would be allocated to the right train then I personally would think the best compromise would be:

Plymouth/Penzance/Swansea and that area services:
2+8 sets - with refreshed 1st class seating in the buffet vehicle as now.

Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter area services
2+8 sets - with the remaining un-refreshed buffet vehicles converted to standard class seating (approx 40 seats) with a smaller buffet area covering around the width of three windows (about 66% of the present size).

Oxford/Cotswold Line/Cheltenham area services
2+7 sets - with no buffet vehicle, but a trolley service.

That would mean:

a) A full buffet service on the vast majority of trains, backed up by a trolley service on the shorter services which could make use of the slight extra acceleration with more station stops.
b) Extra standard class seating on Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter services at a slight loss of 1st class seating.

[vacman]

Most of the Penzance/Newquay services this year have been stupidly busy, even more so than previous years, so why not convert the first class seating in coach F to standard seats? I know this was mentioned here before but there just isn't enough capacity on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s into and out of Cornwall for the summer months!

[IndustryInsider]

Most of the Penzance/Newquay services this year have been stupidly busy, even more so than previous years, so why not convert the first class seating in coach F to standard seats? I know this was mentioned here before but there just isn't enough capacity on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s into and out of Cornwall for the summer months!

Or you could 'swap' the two 2+8 configurations around (as detailed in my previous post) so that on weekend services the maximum standard class seats are on the Cornwall routes?

[willc]

As the number of retail outlets at stations increase, the argument for having a buffet service decreases, but I think it's one of those situations where the perception of having a buffet car on board increases the prestige of a service - even if a passenger isn't going to use it, then it is a positive facility that gives the train in question a certain 'Inter-City' feel.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could guarantee to a reasonable extent that the availablility of having in essence three 'types' of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) operating would mean that the right type would be allocated to the right train then I personally would think the best compromise would be:

Plymouth/Penzance/Swansea and that area services:
2+8 sets - with refreshed 1st class seating in the buffet vehicle as now.

Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter area services
2+8 sets - with the remaining un-refreshed buffet vehicles converted to standard class seating (approx 40 seats) with a smaller buffet area covering around the width of three windows (about 66% of the present size).

Oxford/Cotswold Line/Cheltenham area services
2+7 sets - with no buffet vehicle, but a trolley service.

That would mean:

a) A full buffet service on the vast majority of trains, backed up by a trolley service on the shorter services which could make use of the slight extra acceleration with more station stops.
b) Extra standard class seating on Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter services at a slight loss of 1st class seating.

But could you "guarantee" the right type? As I said last night, what happens when you hit trouble and need a set swap? And what actually is the 'right' train for particular sets of services?

For example, on the Cotswold/Oxford route, the two up morning peak services from Abergavenny/Hereford do need some sort of kitchen service, as there is a demand for hot breakfast food, and the seating capacity offered by a 2+8 set.

Likewise, the 15.51 and 17.21 from London need every seat they can get - and could really do with being 2+9s most Fridays. So you would need to work these factors - and 2+8s - in among your 2+7s, plus, if you are going for sub-fleets, then Oxford services really only need a single FO in the formation, which was what the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) suggested when it floated high-capacity sets in its GW^▸ (Great Western) Main Line RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy).

And I've never really bought the performance argument. Even allowing for extra stops these days, the timings are pretty generous, compared with some in the past for 2+8 sets doing the same journeys.

I have been on late-running 2+8 HSTs that have run start-to-stop Moreton-Oxford in 25 and 27 minutes, inclusive of Kingham and Charlbury stops, compared with a booked time of 32 minutes. I'm sure the fuel consumption was a bit on the heavy side, but these efforts got both trains back near right time by Oxford, despite lugging a buffet car around.

The 05.35 from Hereford (now with a Hanborough stop added) is shamefully allowed 44 minutes for this section of its journey in the current timetable, that's a whole minute less than the halts train making seven stops! I appreciate some of the time is a pathing allowance to try to avoid conflict and knock-on delays but even so, it's over the top.

[IndustryInsider]

But could you "guarantee" the right type? As I said last night, what happens when you hit trouble and need a set swap? And what actually is the 'right' train for particular sets of services?

I have been on late-running 2+8 HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) that have run start-to-stop Moreton-Oxford in 25 and 27 minutes, inclusive of Kingham and Charlbury stops, compared with a booked time of 32 minutes. I'm sure the fuel consumption was a bit on the heavy side, but these efforts got both trains back near right time by Oxford, despite lugging a buffet car around.

That would be the biggest issue of course, and there would need to be certain services that would go against the basic suggestions I mentioned - the Cotwold Line services you mention being one of them. We are still in a position where more Standard Class seats are required on certain trains though. 2+9 formations are a possibility on more routes thanks to SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), but the buffet car size reduction and conversion to Standard Class would be a more cost-effective way of achieving extra seating.

I agree with you on the the performance issue to a large extent, Will. The difference is quite often negligible - there is about a 10% reduction in overall train weight with a buffet car removed. Though that doesn't mean a 10% saving in journey times as the previous management of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would have had you believe. For starters when the train is full many extra tonnes of weight are added to the train by the passengers reducing this weight saving, and when the train has accelerated to the linespeed then of course there is no further saving to be had. There are also no savings in terms of braking. I would hazard a guess that between 1-2 minutes would be saved on a 'typical stops' service from Hereford to Oxford with a 2+7 formation.

25 minutes from Moreton-Oxford really is going some though. That's well over a 60mph average speed inclusive of the two station stops. I timed 28 minutes for the same journey in an Adelante a couple of years ago which had an additional stop at Hanborough, but it really was being driven hard - and of course Adelante's have better accelerations and brakes (when they are working properly!).

[willc]

Certainly was driven hard. You don't often get a whiff of brakepads on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) these days - anyone remember the stench the a/c used to suck in from the original type BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) used in the late 1970s? - but we did on this occasion approaching both stations and again at Wolvercot, as the driver was using the 100mph limit to the full after Charlbury.