Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[chaulender]

Why so much focus on the journey time?  In relation to its role as a diversion line, surely whether Plymouth-Tavistock-Exeter takes 60m, 90m, or 120m is not that relevant.  What is relevant is that a Plymouth-Exeter journey can be made by rail at all.  I don't think anyone is suggesting it becomes the primary rail route from Plymouth to Exeter.

Unlike the other options, the old Southern route has (in  addition to the 'diversionary' role) an extra big advantage of providing rail access to a large area currently not served by rail (albeit a low population density area).

When costing the re-instatement of the old Southern route, regard should be taken of the fact that funding of the Bere Alston - Tavistock section  is already planned so the incremental costs are only of the Tavistock to Meldon section (plus any costs relating to increased line capacity outside that section)

[JayMac]

Build a DAL and no one (excepting Dawlish and Teignmouth); not Plymouth, not Cornwall, not Totnes, not Torbay would need bus replacements.

Oh, and an avoiding line also ticks the 'journey time improvement' box which should please the vocal lot in Plymouth.  

I appear to be a lone voice sticking up for the South Hams and Torbay.  

No you're not, I'm with you on this.

Cheers John. 

[John R]

Why so much focus on the journey time?  In relation to its role as a diversion line, surely whether Plymouth-Tavistock-Exeter takes 60m, 90m, or 120m is not that relevant.  What is relevant is that a Plymouth-Exeter journey can be made by rail at all.  I don't think anyone is suggesting it becomes the primary rail route from Plymouth to Exeter.

But if you are going to spend a couple of hundred million on some sort of avoiding line, why not build one which can be used day in day out to provide a faster service to Torbay, Plymouth and Cornwall?  Yes, it would probably cost more, but I suspect the additional cost, when compared with the additional benefits would be cost justified.

[ellendune]

I appear to be a lone voice sticking up for the South Hams and Torbay.  

I hope not and I am sure those doing the study will be noting the following:

1) If a line is just a diversion it will be slow because there would be little justification for the expense of making it fast
2) There is no justification for a full diversion of the main line via Okehampton because:
     a) The population of that part of North Devon is tiny compared to Torbay and South Hams
     b) There would be a need to reverse at Exeter and (for ongoing trains to Cornwall) also at Plymouth
3) A short diversion round Dawlish would reduce journey times and still serve Torbay and South Hams
4) The existing line would have to retained in both options so there is no saving to either.
5) A local service to Okehampton from Exeter and one to Tavistock from Plymouth would provide a service to these sparsely populated areas at less cost

[exeterkiwi]

Could the Okehampton to Exeter line be part of the Devon Metro if this option was not chosen

Guy

[RichardB]

No-one but no-one is wanting to do down the South Hams and Torbay, but the biggest thing is if anyone west of Exeter will get any additional diversionary route at all.

Any of the Dawlish avoiding lines, even the one planned in the late 30s, would be a completely new railway, needing to be planned from scratch and involving some element of tunnelling.  The cost could be huge.

The one big plus about the Okehampton route is that it is largely there, either still as a railway, as a cycleway or simply as trackbed with few obstructions.  If the will was there, it could be rebuilt and reopened quite quickly and at not massive expense(despite what Network Rail are saying now).

We'll see what the studies say.  Bottom line for me is that we get one of the additional routes - if a Dawlish avoiding line works out best, great.  If not, then Okehampton.

[ChrisB]

I am too.....I can't see the mouths in PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) putting their money where there mouths are....

[Andy]

No-one but no-one is wanting to do down the South Hams and Torbay, but the biggest thing is if anyone west of Exeter will get any additional diversionary route at all.

Any of the Dawlish avoiding lines, even the one planned in the late 30s, would be a completely new railway, needing to be planned from scratch and involving some element of tunnelling.  The cost could be huge.

The one big plus about the Okehampton route is that it is largely there, either still as a railway, as a cycleway or simply as trackbed with few obstructions.  If the will was there, it could be rebuilt and reopened quite quickly and at not massive expense(despite what Network Rail are saying now).

We'll see what the studies say.  Bottom line for me is that we get one of the additional routes - if a Dawlish avoiding line works out best, great.  If not, then Okehampton.

Yes. What the SW needs is two routes to Plymouth, one main route (the repaired sea wall for the time being) and one additional one (Okehampton). If/when the sea wall route looks as if it's set to crumble into the sea, a DAL must replace it. In the meantime, two lines are there to act as diversionary routes for each other and reinstating the Dartmoor route between Tavistock & Okehampton opens up the potential for new traffic with the possibilities of journeys from Plymouth to Okehampton/Tavistock and Tavistock/Okehampton to Exeter.

[Dark Star]

Hopefully The Dawlish line will reopen in about two weeks, that's 2 months it's been closed, ^20million a day lost in the West Devon and Cornwall.

And the Weakest Part of the Modern railway is that it JUST CAN'T work together to make a big publicity issue out of the line reopening.

How about a Steam Train making several Exeter to Newton Abbot journeys the Weekend the line opens??

Never Happen FGW^▸ (First Great Western) couldn't arrange anything!!!!   

Of course it's very very generous of FGW that FGW engineers are working 24/7 rebuilding the storm damaged railway, (as per their radio ad's),
Hope Network Rail send FGW the repair bill. 

[ChrisB]

Pardon?

IF the West's economy is losing that amount - and others in business have said it's only ^2million/day - shouldn't it be the West's businesses putting on what you suggest? It's no fault of any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), nor NR^» (Network Rail - home page), but an act of God (the weather, that is) that has caused this problem - why should it JUST be down to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/NR?

[paul7575]

... that's 2 months it's been closed, ^20million a day lost in the West Devon and Cornwall.

Really?   Or is that one of those 'finger in the air' estimates that will turn out to have been nothing of the sort?  

Paul

[ChrisB]

Might be that sort of money in the height of the summer season - but in deepest February with the weather at its worst? - sorry, it's just a finger in the sky figure, agreed.

West Country business have an inflated idea of the amount of GDP they produce. Need to get of their high horse and produce a sensible report with facts, not just conjecture.

[bobm]

I have no idea of the figures involved across the whole South West economy, but hotels in the Teignmouth and Dawlish areas are reported to have been booked up en masse for Network rail workers and their contractors working on the repairs.  I suspect, with the possible exception of the half term week, they would not have been anything like full otherwise.

[onthecushions]

Just a caution for those thinking (rightly) that a re-opened Okehampton route could be cheap/simple/quick.

The 7.5 miles of reinstatement of Uckfield - Lewes was costed by NR^» (Network Rail - home page) at ^140M, for single track. 55 miles of double track would be well over ^1Bn.

They got this by including acquiring land (15m strips alongside, temporarily, for contractors' convenience), by renewing all infrastructure, although they said that 75% was reusable, blanketing/deep ballasting, extra clearances for 100mph, contingency and optimism assumptions etc.

That's why those in the industry may say that starting from scratch is best.

If they had just kept the high level concrete skirting walkway continuous at Dawlish (apparently the residents felt it intrusive) there might never have been an issue.

OTC

[AMLAG]

Just as well NR^» (Network Rail - home page) did not get involved in the Bluebell Rly extension then !

Surely someone else can re-instate/build lines besides NR and its Contractorial/'over scoping' set ups.

Hundreds of thousands of good concrete f/b sleepers,with approx 50 yrs of life still in them, are being crushed or the lucky ones sold to farmers at a couple quid each for farm tracks etc.
50-60 yrs old B/H chaired conc. sleepers are increasingly finding their way to private lines for re-use for another 50 years !