Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[Lee]

Semantics -Especially as I was one who pointed it out  

Ok, have it your way - Hallgate did assert that going via Okehampton would involve a near 4 hour journey time - it is an absolute fact that he said that.

What I am saying is that if a (so far) silent majority of forum members agree with Hallgate on that, then they should feel free to post and I will respect that.

[Andy]

Personally, I find it hard to imagine that it would take 4 hours to get to Plymouth via Okehampton. Lee's 3.30 seems nearer the mark. If we assume that London Paddington-Exeter takes 2 hrs-2 hours 15 mins, would Exeter-Plymouth take 1hr 45?

[Lee]

Your chance to vote in the London-Plymouth via Okehampton Journey Time Poll can be found here.

[Red Squirrel]

GRIP^▸ (Guide to Railway Investment Projects) 0 is 'What are we trying to achieve?'

It's a very good question to ask at the outset! All the route options give resilience, so what we are arguing about is the second-order gains.

We on this forum seem to be split between 'deepeners' and 'wideners': 'deepeners' want to speed up the current service, which would probably push us in the direction of C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction), C2 or C3; 'wideners' are more interested in making rail services more readily available to people who live north of Dartmoor, which suggests route A. I don't hear many advocates of B.

I can't see that the line speeds achieved on the Okehampton route back in the days of 60ft rail and clockwork signals have much bearing on what would be achievable if it were rebuilt - ^700 million ought to go a very long way towards giving it a much better line speed. It might not be quite as quick as the 'C' routes, but surely the gain for North Devon, plus the extra capacity, has to be an important consideration?

[AMLAG]

Hopefully Paddington to Plymouth via an Okehampton diversionary route will realistically be under 4 hours but a train journey time extension is usually far more acceptable to the vast majority of rail passengers compared to enduring lengthy & unpopular bus journeys.

Thus the reason Cross Country (rather slowly to instigate some might say) have provided an increasing number of trains services between Exeter and Bristol diverted via Westbury, that whilst adding about 45 mins. to the journey have nevertheless been chosen and preferred by rail passengers.

The Government concerned with the large amount of planned bustitution in recent years has set NR^» (Network Rail - home page) objectives for a big reduction in the need for bustitution and aspires to a 24/7 Railway.

To this end not only would an Exeter/Okehampton/Plymouth re-opened railway (serving Okehampton, Sourton Parkway & Tavistock) be available as a diversionary route for Plymouth & Cornwall rail traffic in times of emergencies on the South Devon route but it could also be used for diversions for planned Infrastructure works on the South Devon route which normally amounts to several weekends, sometimes also weekdays, a year; thereby enabling NR to meet some of its Government set objectives.

It is known that the Southern Exeter/Plymouth main line was engineered to a far higher standard than the South Devon/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) route..not least with regards to its much easier gradients and lack of numerous sharp curves which cause, for about 25 miles between N.Abbot & Hemerdon, considerable & costly wheel flange/rail wear & resultant shortened life,  ..you only have to be on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to appreciate the wheels aggressively grinding into the rails at max. line speed of (only) 60mph on the curves.

 

[RichardB]

I was there too on Saturday - it was a very interesting day - and just wanted to add a couple of observations on the potential journey time via Okehampton.

Patrick Hallgate gave an excellent presentation but did not seem particularly well informed when it came to the Okehampton route.  To be fair, he said the study of all the potential additional routes was being done, to be with ministers by the end of June.

As has been pointed out, in BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days, at the end, a fast service on the Okehampton line took around 20 minutes longer than via Newton Abbot.  In the line's final timetable, two Sunday trains were booked to take 1 hr 40 mins with four stops as against 1 hr 21 mins with two stops on the Western.   The thing to point out here was that, for reasons of economy as much as anything, the line speed for the 23 miles south of Bridestowe was just 40MPH (by contrast, it's now 55MPH for most of the line south of Bere Alston).

In May 1966, Ian Allan organised a non stop special from Paddington - Penzance, back to Waterloo.  It must have been quite a day.   I have attached a log of the Plymouth - Waterloo section which shows that it took 72 minutes to get from Plymouth - Newton St Cyres after which a speed restriction for the Cowley Bridge replacement works meant it took another ten minutes to St Davids (82 mins from Plymouth in all, with one stop).   

For me, the Okehampton route would mean no more bus replacements for those of us who live in Plymouth and Cornwall and this would be great.  However, of course, it would not be the fast route that many here are looking for, not least Plymouth City Council, the Chamber of Commerce etc.

We'll see what the study says but, if it is to be the Okehampton route (if we get any additional route at all), then it need not be as slow as some fear.

[ChrisB]

We on this forum seem to be split between 'deepeners' and 'wideners': 'deepeners' want to speed up the current service, which would probably push us in the direction of C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction), C2 or C3; 'wideners' are more interested in making rail services more readily available to people who live north of Dartmoor, which suggests route A. I don't hear many advocates of B.

Agreed - Patrick Hallgate (PH) referred to some of that route having been built on, so he thought it was going to be an expensive option too.

It might not be quite as quick as the 'C' routes, but surely the gain for North Devon, plus the extra capacity, has to be an important consideration?

Only to HMG in approving whichever scheme (if they go for any) - it seemed as though PH was under instruction only to look to provide a report on which route(s) might be diversionary & at what price. It will be for HMG to decide whether any mitigating factors over the price differences are worth paying. I suspect they may look to the local Councils to put their money where their mouth is, if they can all decide which route suits them all! Could be an interesting few months lobbying....

[trainbuff]

Just found this report online. Talks of advantages of a number of schemes, the merits of SD (south Dartmoor) and ND (North Dartmoor) and proposed electrification and development of direct routes into Cornwall.

A pdf file but you can find it in the list on the google search below. Second item down:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+Dawlish+railway+resilience+report+2012&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=KaUUU5ugHKiS7Ablq4GQDQ

[Red Squirrel]

This link will take you straight to the report.

[Umberleigh]

Network Rail have poured scorn on a new/reopened route avoiding Dawlish since day one. It is quite apparent they will claim the repaired sea wall is more resilient (heard that before?) and no further action is needed.

Look at their latest tactic: tell the Plymouth business community that only Dawlish can deliver their cherished 3hr trip journey time to London. Add into this constant sniping about development on the old route/s, cost and 'problems' and it paints a very negative approach. An approach quite at odds with the 'can do' attitude of the Crossrail and HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) projects: if only Crossrail involved demolishing some offices, a couple of houses and strengthening a viaduct, eh?

Meanwhile, the sea levels keep rising and the 'storms of a century' become almost annual events...

[exeterkiwi]

I don't know who Tom Worsley  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26407806.

Transport spending is a lot lower than other parts of the country per head ^212 per person in the South West Compared to ^774 in London But I could be rong here the land would be cheaper in the south west to build on.

Guy

[34104]

Just found this report online. Talks of advantages of a number of schemes, the merits of SD (south Dartmoor) and ND (North Dartmoor) and proposed electrification and development of direct routes into Cornwall.

A pdf file but you can find it in the list on the google search below. Second item down:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+Dawlish+railway+resilience+report+2012&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=KaUUU5ugHKiS7Ablq4GQDQ

Wonder who that report was produced for? JCR seem to be a recognised company;

http://www.jrc.org.uk/

Not really the sort of thing you would spend time on and then put on the internet if there is no purpose to it but it takes all sorts to make a world i suppose.Some of the proposals would appear to be rather ambitious in all truth,visionary certainly but vision doesn't seem to cut much ice with relevant autorities,especially as far as the west country is concerned.Curious.

[Electric train]

Network Rail will put proposals forward with cost estimates for all of Dawlish alternative routes it will then be down to the campaigning of the people in Devon and Cornwall to get the Political determination to construct the alternative route

[JayMac]

For me, the Okehampton route would mean no more bus replacements for those of us who live in Plymouth and Cornwall and this would be great. 

Build a DAL and no one (excepting Dawlish and Teignmouth); not Plymouth, not Cornwall, not Totnes, not Torbay would need bus replacements.

Oh, and an avoiding line also ticks the 'journey time improvement' box which should please the vocal lot in Plymouth.  

I appear to be a lone voice sticking up for the South Hams and Torbay.  

[John R]

Build a DAL and no one (excepting Dawlish and Teignmouth); not Plymouth, not Cornwall, not Totnes, not Torbay would need bus replacements.

Oh, and an avoiding line also ticks the 'journey time improvement' box which should please the vocal lot in Plymouth.  

I appear to be a lone voice sticking up for the South Hams and Torbay.  

No you're not, I'm with you on this.