Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Actually, you'll find the business case for Crossrail & moving millions of people annually through London might have something more tangible to do with one being built and the other an expensive (but possibly necessary depending on whether its considered to be a one-in-175-years event or something likely to be more frequent.

Hopefully, those in Cornwall will get a sense of proportion soon. While HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and Crossrail will be built & money spent for good reason, the diversion via Okehampton is incredibly expensive for the numbers likely to use it (no where near Crossrail nor HS2 numbers). Yes, something is needed - but currently you can't access it from the East/London, so its not that useful....Further money needs spending on the lines from the East towards Exeter first, so that at least you can guarantee services into Exeter!

[AMLAG]

'Smokey' advises:-
 'The Loss of the Southern line was unforgiveable, how many realise that during 1969 during a breach of the Seawall at Dawlish, whilst passengers had to transfer to road services from Exeter to Newton Abbot BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) ran at least 2 trains fron Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock.'

The above interesting information from 'Smokey' prompts me to mention that on Fri 21 Feb 1969 I witnessed D827 'Kelly' with an Exeter crew pass through Tavistock at about 1630 hauling a diverted Tavistock Jn to Exeter Riverside freight with approx 35 fully fitted wagons..this was preceeded by a loco with a snow plough...I seem to remember the reason for this diversion was due to the GW^▸ (Great Western) line blocked at Hemerdon by snow.
I would be very interested 'Smokey' to know more details/date of the 2 trains you mention that were also diverted from  Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton & Tavistock in 1969.

[Red Squirrel]

I would like to know why Network Rail's knee-jerk reaction when faced the collapsed sea wall was to immediately dismiss an alternative route. The reasons were a) cost of ^700-800 million, and b) beset with problems.

According to RailFuture, NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have the cost of the DAL (and the Tavistock - Okehampton route) both at around ^150-200M (see this article. Where have you seen ^700-800M quoted?

As to 'beset with problems': Well it would be. It's an Engineering project.

[ellendune]

1) was 600-700 for reopening Okehampton to Tavistock or a new Avoiding line?  edit Sorry answer it the article.  It is 150-200 million for either option

2) The other problem of the Okehampton route is it would never replace the Dawlish Route so would not save the very high maintenance costs.

However if only used for diversions the double reversal at Exeter and Plymouth might not be an issue.

[AMLAG]

Devon County Council has recently stated re-instatement of Bere Alston with a Single line to a new station at Tavistock is expected to cost in region of ^20-25m  for the 5 miles.

The remaining approx 16 miles to Meldon can be worked out pro-rata including a new Parkway station at Sourton; this new station is an essential part of the equation to assist with justification of re-instatement of the Okehampton/Tavistock route not only as an alternative/diversionary route for Plymouth and Cornwall traffic but as an increasingly needed railhead to serve West Devon, North West Devon and Cornwall - mainly North.

Incidentally the current 23 days closure of the Exeter/Taunton line has variously been quoted by NR^» (Network Rail - home page) as costing ^10m and ^15m and Transport Minister McLoughlin when interviewed at Dawlish's 'Beautiful seaside line' on 7/2/14 mentioned NR were spending ^20m on Whiteball works ..a figure he must have got from NR..possibly this new and inflated figure now includes the  ^zillions spent on Bus transport and compensation to the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) & FOCs^▸ (Freight Operating Company).

[exeterkiwi]

I think the differences between the two options are the number of people served by the lines

1) Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

Okehampton  around 6,000
West Devon

issues

Bridge
Train Driver having to change the direction twice, at Exeter and at Plymouth
Journey increase time increase to Plymouth and Penzance.
Newton Abbot not having a direct London train service


2) Dawlish Avoidance Line

Newton Abbot around 22,000
Short Train times to Plymouth and Penzance


Issues
No track bed
Tunnels


Improve other rail services
Re-instate Okehampton Passenger Service.
Turn exiting main line to from Newton Abbot to Exeter to Branch line states and single track with passing loops
New station at kingsteignton

[34104]

1) was 600-700 for reopening Okehampton to Tavistock or a new Avoiding line?  edit Sorry answer it the article.  It is 150-200 million for either option

2) The other problem of the Okehampton route is it would never replace the Dawlish Route so would not save the very high maintenance costs.

However if only used for diversions the double reversal at Exeter and Plymouth might not be an issue.

In the Western Morning News on Saturday,it clearly stated that Network Rail has put a price tag of between ^500m and ^700m on the "alternative cross country route".I suppose that could mean either of the alternatives proposed but personally i find it very hard to believe that either would cost that much-could there be a bit of politically motivated scaremongering already being activated?

[Red Squirrel]

Devon County Council has recently stated re-instatement of Bere Alston with a Single line to a new station at Tavistock is expected to cost in region of ^20-25m  for the 5 miles.

The remaining approx 16 miles to Meldon can be worked out pro-rata...

Pro-rata would be ^5M/mile. That's not enough. I've taken flak for this in the past, but the Borders Railway is very comparable, given the new works and demolitions required. This works out at ^10M/mile, and this figure is the actual cost, not a projection or estimate.

[bobm]

In the Western Morning News on Saturday,it clearly stated that Network Rail has put a price tag of between ^500m and ^700m on the "alternative cross country route".

Given that the Reading Station improvements are costing an estimated ^850m that seems good value to me.

[John R]

But what would a new build 10m line cost. ^200m? 300m?

To put it in context for two road schemes starting this spring, the new M1/M6/A14 junction is costed at ^191m. And the conversion of 12 miles of the A1 to motorway from Leeming to Barton is costed at ^314m.  So this sort of money to sort out a problem for Devon and Cornwall is not unreasonable. It's just that it's a rail investment, so sounds a lot.   

[ChrisB]

The whole line would need twin track & upgrade to main line status - I believe the figures given.

[SandTEngineer]

The whole line would need twin track & upgrade to main line status - I believe the figures given.

I don't buy that.  A single line with passing loops every 5 miles or so (Bere Alston, Tavistock, Brentor, Okehampton, Bow Road) would probably support a half hour service each way.  The track could be laid on one side of the formation allowing gradual double tracking at a later date as funding allows.

As to the reversing issue.  In my experience most trains spend up to five minutes standing at both Exeter St.Davids and Plymouth.  I think an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) can change ends in about 6 to 7 minutes?

[ChrisB]

I thought we were suggesting the full service via that line with local shuttles along the sea wall?

[ellendune]

The Okehampton option would need some money to sort a route through Tavistock as there are some buildings in the way and the landscape doesn't give much room for flexibility.

[34104]

The Okehampton option would need some money to sort a route through Tavistock as there are some buildings in the way and the landscape doesn't give much room for flexibility.

There wouldn't be any need for flexibility.The houses would be CPO'd and knocked down in the same way as a far more substantial number of properties have been in the rebuilding of the Borders railway.