Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[34104]

He also said that non-stop running wasn't an option as trains need to be full-ish on arrival into/out of  London to bolster the business case. He couldn't recommend spending loads of money just for trains arriving a quarter empty. So if you're carrying from Dawlish / Teignmouth & the Torbay area, you need to stop & pick upother pax elsewhere.

He reckoned the Okehampton route would add an hour to the journey time, and for that reason very few would choose it over Dawlish repaired. He thought it better value to make Dawlish far more weather & sea proof than spend millions on an avoiding route, other than possibly a slower diversionary route.

In that case,whoever "he" may be is talking ill informed and possibly politically motivated and biased trash.

[JayMac]

Well it may not add an hour to the EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains)-PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) journey time, but using Okehampton as a diversionary route when necessesary leaves then entire population of Torbay and the South Hams without direct rail links to the rest of the country.

Far better in my mind to build a Dawlish Avoiding Line first. Then look at whether Okehampton-Tavistock merits reopening.

[ChrisB]

He also said that non-stop running wasn't an option as trains need to be full-ish on arrival into/out of  London to bolster the business case. He couldn't recommend spending loads of money just for trains arriving a quarter empty. So if you're carrying from Dawlish / Teignmouth & the Torbay area, you need to stop & pick upother pax elsewhere.

He reckoned the Okehampton route would add an hour to the journey time, and for that reason very few would choose it over Dawlish repaired. He thought it better value to make Dawlish far more weather & sea proof than spend millions on an avoiding route, other than possibly a slower diversionary route.

In that case,whoever "he" may be is talking ill informed and possibly politically motivated and biased trash.

Errr....Patrick Hallgate - Network Rail actually. He knows far more than thou

[ChrisB]

Far better in my mind to build a Dawlish Avoiding Line first. Then look at whether Okehampton-Tavistock merits reopening.

You should have been there, what happened? :-)

Patrick Hallgate outlined all the five options previously announced and frankly, I thought he was saying all of them had disadvantages outweighing the advantages whether through elongated travel times, land ownership/building problems or stupid money needed. His report to HMG will be interesting...

[grahame]

Looking to compare apples with apples, I turned to Bradshaw of 1922.   The fastest Exeter to Plymouth journey on the London and South Western was 90 minutes, and the fastest Exeter to Plymouth journey on the Great Western was faster at 82 minutes. No view expressed on how that translates for today, nor on intermediate traffic opportunities or what any future balance should be - just providing a journey time comparison from the days when the lines were competing before.

[Electric train]

He also said that non-stop running wasn't an option as trains need to be full-ish on arrival into/out of  London to bolster the business case. He couldn't recommend spending loads of money just for trains arriving a quarter empty. So if you're carrying from Dawlish / Teignmouth & the Torbay area, you need to stop & pick upother pax elsewhere.

He reckoned the Okehampton route would add an hour to the journey time, and for that reason very few would choose it over Dawlish repaired. He thought it better value to make Dawlish far more weather & sea proof than spend millions on an avoiding route, other than possibly a slower diversionary route.

In that case,whoever "he" may be is talking ill informed and possibly politically motivated and biased trash.

Errr....Patrick Hallgate - Network Rail actually. He knows far more than thou

Yep Patrick Hallgate is the Route Managing Director for Network Rail.  Previous roles include RMD for the Great Eastern and MD for Infrastructure Projects London & South of England. 

His statements on the Dawlish issue would not be the whimsical ranting's of a madman or southing he dreamt up in the pup over a pint or 2, he will have tasked the senior engineers and operations mangers to optioneer the different scenarios it is likely he will have to present this and a whole rift of other climate resilience measures (Somerset, Oxford, Thames Valley) to the House of Commons Transport select committee.

[34104]

Errr....Patrick Hallgate - Network Rail actually. He knows far more than thou

If he stated that ESD to Plymouth via an upgraded Okehampton line would take an hour longer than the current line via Dawlish,then he most certainly doesn't appear to know more than me.How on earth would a line which is just 5 miles shorter than the comparator line enjoy that sort of time advantage? Even BigNoseMac,who is by no means a proponent of the Okehampton route,knows that it's bullshine.Is there a transcript of the meeting available? 

[ChrisB]

Unfortunately not - but there are others here that were also present.

I suspect he was referring to the likely provision should that line be built - that the maximum line speed will NOT be designed as a high-speed line at speeds such as is available on the current line...money is quite definitely a big consideration, and for various reasons he gave, would likely only be used by HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at time of Dawlish closure, so there would be no need to do this.

[JayMac]

A diversionary route, whose main purpose would be to serve local traffic, may not justify the extra expense of re-engineering it for higher speed running to match that achieved on the existing line. Admittedly, speeds aren't great over the Devon Banks, but can they be matched by the detour around North Devon without additional expense above and beyond that needed to open the line for local services?

Notwithstanding the reversal needed at Exeter St Davids, or double reversal for services into and out of Cornwall.

Still won't add up to an hour longer journey I think. That though is not my main concern about favouring Okehampton-Tavistock for reopening. It does nothing to address the issue of Torbay and the South Hams being left with no trains when there are sea wall problems. A short inland DAL from Exminster to Newton Abbot keeps the good folk of Torquay and Totnes connected to the rail network in all weathers. As well as offering speeded up journeys to Plymouth.

Okehampton-Tavistock should be given a cost/benefit analysis on its own traffic potential. No additional weighting should be given to it as a diversionary route.

[ChrisB]

A short inland DAL from Exminster to Newton Abbot keeps the good folk of Torquay and Totnes connected to the rail network in all weathers. As well as offering speeded up journeys to Plymouth.

Think you're going to be disappointed - the five routes being analysed in his report are in the attached image....from one of the pages of his powerpoint that have been sent to all attendees.

Just noticed route C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction) may be your suggestion?

[JayMac]

And three of those options, C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction), C2, C3, are along the lines of what I'd like to see

[ChrisB]

He was pretty clear that only one of these at most might go ahead.

[Lee]

I was there, and what Patrick Hallgate said was in the context of the ,ahem, rather lively debate surrounding the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London. He said that going via Okehampton would mean a journey time nearer to 4 hours, and notwithstanding his excellent pedigree & well-deserved meteoric rise up the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) ladder, he is clearly likely to proved wrong on this. Should reinstatement happen, a (say for sake of argument) London-Reading-Exeter-one of Okehampton/Tavistock-Plymouth stopping pattern service should still be capable of getting in under 3hr 30 minutes.

Indeed, the look on his face after he said it was the classic one of those who have just uttered a hostage to fortune, as the heated conclusion of that debate clearly demonstrated.

In my opinion though, the problem for all concerned when linking the reinstatement of the route via Okehampton with the Plymouth area aspiration for a 3-hour journey time to London is that it is akin to providing the wrong answer to the wrong question.

3 hour London-Plymouth journey time services are already here, with a number contained within the current timetable. What the Plymouth folks actually want is a significant rise in the amount of such services, to the extent that the 3 hour journey time becomes the regular standard.

In order to achieve this, two significant centres of opposition need to be overcome. Firstly, many of remember that the infamous Draft December 2006 timetable contained a number of speeded-up services, at the expense of the removal of stops at Tiverton Parkway and Totnes. Huge opposition to this ensued, and was instrumental in changing the fundamental structure of the timetable towards the way it looks today. Indeed, the reinstatement of stops at Totnes came on the morning of the very day that large numbers of protesters were due to gather on the platform as a special train full of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)-invited dignitaries was scheduled to pass through.

The other main centre of opposition is one that is already rather more vocal due to what they see as an imminent threat to their London services in the upcoming franchise ^ the West Wiltshire passengers typically centred on Westbury and Pewsey, but also drawn from a wider catchment area. There is also significant concern from further afield at the connection opportunities that could potentially be lost by not stopping at Westbury.

As a result, you also have a problem that is essentially twofold ^

Passengers from the likes of Tiverton Parkway, Totnes, Westbury and Pewsey feeling angry that Plymouth give the impression of simply wanting the 3 hour standard pushed through regardless of their opposition.

Plymouth 3 hour supporters feeling angry that the likes of Tiverton Parkway, Totnes, Westbury and Pewsey want to keep hold of their existing services and perhaps add more, thus steadfastly remaining in the way of their own ambitions.

Whilst I admire the clearly-expressed determination of Matthew Golton to get this impasse sorted once and for all, I don^t recall ^magician^ being in his CV, and he is certainly going to need to be one in order to conjure up a solution to this issue.

[ChrisB]

Thanks for the clarification, Lee - that is indeed what Mr Hallgate said....an hour over the 3hour aspiration.

Agree with all you say above - I don't think that 3 hour aspiration you discuss will be solved until such time as further services get added & everyone get both their stops on some and faster limited-stop on others. But as Mr Hallgate said, all trains need to be around full on arrival in London - so demand has to step up big time - and personally, I don't think the extra pax are going to be forthcoming in order effectively to be full on leaving PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains), or EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) if one can get at least one stop there & also attain that timing.

[JayMac]

And if you have a Dawlish Avoiding Line you have the potential for fasts to overtake semi-fasts which, with some clever timetabling, you can have (some of) the aspirations of all interested parties met.

Provided of course that pathing those services between London and Reading is possible.